Auto tune BS? - Road Glide Forums
ECM/Fuel Management systems ECM/Fuel Management systems For Road Glides

 40Likes
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
post #1 of 90 (permalink) Old 03-27-2016, 10:12 AM Thread Starter
Life Member
 
Road dawg's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Long Island, New York
Posts: 2,068
Auto tune BS?

Here it goes , some people I know are not fond of the power vision or tuners of the same that offer auto tune option, I purchased my power vision from Jamie at Fuel Moto and could not be happier with it, my map seemed a little off I performed 2 auto tune sessions and then went it to quick tune feature and further tweeked my fuel to fix a midrange pinging that was occurring and the scoot runs great. I just read the other day that Bob Woods claims auto tune is bullshit and you need the be dynoed by a pro. Somebody has there information incorrect or something. I don't think I would improve by that much from a dyno tune, any thoughts?

When all else fails, hell there is always beer!
Road dawg is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 90 (permalink) Old 03-27-2016, 10:26 AM
Grey beard
 
Spazz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: Reno, NV
Posts: 1,178
Garage
I run the PV with Target Tune wideband O2's.... Also purchased and configured by Jamie at FM. I couldn't be happier! My first map had some timing issues and throttle limits set incorrectly which was an easy fix. From there I ran AT TT for Wideband for a short 15-20 minutes to dial in the VE tables to start. Then I focused on my lower rpms and lower TPS positions first and watched the table populate. this took another 15 minutes to get at least 7 hits on each cell to learn.... that is the magic number for GREEN/LEARNED blocks. I applied that tune and continued with another session... I ran the higher rpm range and WOT positions to dial that it.... applied that. Then did one more session with normal city and freeway. I then downloaded that map into WinPV and compared to the original and three previous sessions to see where the changes took place. Im dialed in and can't complain at all.... runs the best it ever has and I don't chase numbers, so spending money on a dyno is not going to happen for me.

2015 RGS 120ST | D&D Boss Boarzilla | 4.5" Topshop Ass | Soundz SS4.100 amp, HD-DSP ,(4) Carbon 65's and Iron 69.2's
RENO BAGGER AUDIO
Spazz is offline  
post #3 of 90 (permalink) Old 03-27-2016, 10:40 AM Thread Starter
Life Member
 
Road dawg's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Long Island, New York
Posts: 2,068
I agree Spazz I might run one more autotune this season tweek the tune a step further since I only did 2 then quick tuned it, maybe I can further improve the tune somewhat.

When all else fails, hell there is always beer!
Road dawg is offline  
 
post #4 of 90 (permalink) Old 03-27-2016, 11:27 AM
Life Member
 
! rock103 !'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: Albuquerque, NM
Posts: 2,338
Garage
I don't believe a dyno is going to make a noticeable difference. Maybe a little "unfelt" but that really depends on the talent of the dyno technician as well. For 90+ percent of riders, auto tunes are more than enough. I run the FP3 and have been happy with the results, although the first unit I got for the shark was not working right. Initial tune was good, but felt a noticeable improvement after auto tuning. I think some builders are a bit pissy about products replacing the need for a dyno tune.
1st_HD_Glide and JJSHARKNOSE like this.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

2015 FLTRXS~ Too much to list, check garage for more info
USMC 1990-2000 (0311/6017)
! rock103 ! is offline  
post #5 of 90 (permalink) Old 03-27-2016, 12:41 PM
Life Member
 
! rock103 !'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: Albuquerque, NM
Posts: 2,338
Garage
Quote:
Originally Posted by hrdtail78 View Post
Wouldn't the only way to really know what is left on the table or if anything is left on the table. Is to take it to a dyno. Make 30, 40, 60, 80, and 100% throttle pulls with the tune that you deliver the bike with. Then let the guy dyno tune the bike. Repeat the test and compare?

The rest of the talk, opinions, and quotes are useless compared to this.
Yup, very true. Local dealer charges $50 to do a base tune. Basically just to see what your numbers are. I thought of doing that before and/or after I put cams in. In order for them to do an actual auto tune, they require the SE tuner. Which I am not willing to buy just for the purpose of the dyno tune. And in no real hurry to spend the $$ "just to see". Busy spending money on other more tangible projects.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

2015 FLTRXS~ Too much to list, check garage for more info
USMC 1990-2000 (0311/6017)
! rock103 ! is offline  
post #6 of 90 (permalink) Old 03-27-2016, 01:11 PM
Life Member
 
tdkkart's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: East Central Iowa
Posts: 3,026
Garage
Any idea what we did before dynos??

Make no mistake, I'm a fan of dynos, and actually designed, built and used one for several years on single cylinder kart racing engines.
They're fine for trying to get the last gnat's-ass out of your engine, or at very least learn what a particular type of engine
wants in it's tune, but to convince anyone that you absolutely can't get your engine to run right without a dyno is pure BS.

Especially with access to the tools we have today, it is indeed possible for the average person to get VERY close to perfect, or at least FAR closer than ANYONE could just a few years ago, without ever running your bike on a dyno.
Of course those people that have $$thousands$$ of dollars and hours invested in their dyno programs are going to tell you that the
self tuners are BS, because they're cutting into their liveleyhoods.

Is self tuning for everyone??
No, absolutely not. There are still millions of owners out there that don't have any business picking up a screwdriver to change their seat, so they obviously have no business trying to tune an engine themselves.
There are however many people that can and will be able to do a very good job of tuning their bikes now that the technology is available.

2015 RGU CVO........under continuous change......

Last edited by tdkkart; 03-27-2016 at 01:15 PM.
tdkkart is offline  
post #7 of 90 (permalink) Old 03-27-2016, 02:31 PM
Hangaround
 
harleytuner's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Fredericksburg, Va.
Posts: 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by tdkkart View Post
Any idea what we did before dynos??

Make no mistake, I'm a fan of dynos, and actually designed, built and used one for several years on single cylinder kart racing engines.
They're fine for trying to get the last gnat's-ass out of your engine, or at very least learn what a particular type of engine
wants in it's tune, but to convince anyone that you absolutely can't get your engine to run right without a dyno is pure BS.

Especially with access to the tools we have today, it is indeed possible for the average person to get VERY close to perfect, or at least FAR closer than ANYONE could just a few years ago, without ever running your bike on a dyno.
Of course those people that have $$thousands$$ of dollars and hours invested in their dyno programs are going to tell you that the
self tuners are BS, because they're cutting into their liveleyhoods.

Is self tuning for everyone??
No, absolutely not. There are still millions of owners out there that don't have any business picking up a screwdriver to change their seat, so they obviously have no business trying to tune an engine themselves.
There are however many people that can and will be able to do a very good job of tuning their bikes now that the technology is available.
Before dynos you changed jet in carburetors. Before autotuners you went to a dyno tuner. I own a dyno and am a DynoJet dealer. I could make more money in way less time selling people Target Tune if I thought that was the way to go. Truth is, it's a far from perfect system so for that reason I don't sell it. It's funny you say that the people that spend thousands of $$ on dynos are the one telling you you need a dyno tune but fail to mention that the ones telling you that autotuners are the answer are the ones making money off you selling you the products. Again, I could make the easy money autotuners for doing no more than ordering the product. I get $300 for a tune, takes me around 3-4 hours (depending on how close the starting cal. is), So I have to spend time to make $300. Or I could sell a Target tune for $599 and make a quick $200 profit for doing nothing more than ordering it. Possibly even get the lob installing it, let's say 2 hours labor at $75/hour, now I made $350 in 2 hours instead of $300 in 3-4 hours. So the argument that we push tunes because it's where we make our money just isn't accurate. I push tunes because the end results are better, and it's more economical for the customer.

not to mention that the manufactures of the Autotune system will tell you that the products are not intended to be used to create the tune, but to be used to maintain the tune after it's been properly dyno tuned.

the whole reason of tuning a bike isn't about getting every last ounce of power out of it, it's about longevity and reliability of the engine. When you are data logging with autotuners you are riding the bike OUT OF TUNE, what good does it do to finally get a bike tuned if the damage is already done during the datalogging? Kind of counter productive in my book.
harleytuner is offline  
post #8 of 90 (permalink) Old 03-27-2016, 03:04 PM
Grey beard
 
Spazz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: Reno, NV
Posts: 1,178
Garage
Quote:
Originally Posted by harleytuner View Post
Before dynos you changed jet in carburetors. Before autotuners you went to a dyno tuner. I own a dyno and am a DynoJet dealer. I could make more money in way less time selling people Target Tune if I thought that was the way to go. Truth is, it's a far from perfect system so for that reason I don't sell it. It's funny you say that the people that spend thousands of $$ on dynos are the one telling you you need a dyno tune but fail to mention that the ones telling you that autotuners are the answer are the ones making money off you selling you the products. Again, I could make the easy money autotuners for doing no more than ordering the product. I get $300 for a tune, takes me around 3-4 hours (depending on how close the starting cal. is), So I have to spend time to make $300. Or I could sell a Target tune for $599 and make a quick $200 profit for doing nothing more than ordering it. Possibly even get the lob installing it, let's say 2 hours labor at $75/hour, now I made $350 in 2 hours instead of $300 in 3-4 hours. So the argument that we push tunes because it's where we make our money just isn't accurate. I push tunes because the end results are better, and it's more economical for the customer.

not to mention that the manufactures of the Autotune system will tell you that the products are not intended to be used to create the tune, but to be used to maintain the tune after it's been properly dyno tuned.

the whole reason of tuning a bike isn't about getting every last ounce of power out of it, it's about longevity and reliability of the engine. When you are data logging with autotuners you are riding the bike OUT OF TUNE, what good does it do to finally get a bike tuned if the damage is already done during the datalogging? Kind of counter productive in my book.
You make some valid points... and as a business point of things, you are absolutely correct on easy money for sure. As for dyno-tuning.... I am a hands on guy and appreciate the knowledge of those you can tune from the dyno and would rather that way if I trusted the tech and can stand there and watch and learn from it and how it all comes together. There are plenty of techs out there that can read, understand and work out issues from datalog sessions with the correct data being logged and I am not one of them, but I know a few and envy their knowledge and understanding in this arena.

but I have to ask a question.....

The base tune gets you close ( supposed to anyway ) so you start there. It doesn't matter if you are using AT for a few sessions or running it on the dyno... you still are running 'out of tune' as you put it.... am I correct on this? You have to make adjustments on the dyno as you run it.... so does the AT process.

So if I run an AT session to focus on a certain rpm range and TPS setting... apply it.... check it....it runs better...... is this not the same as running a dyno, tweaking the tune and re-testing?

Im not saying that the AT sessions are as accurate as a true dyno... but the process is basically the same in my eyes...

Correct me if I'm wrong here....

2015 RGS 120ST | D&D Boss Boarzilla | 4.5" Topshop Ass | Soundz SS4.100 amp, HD-DSP ,(4) Carbon 65's and Iron 69.2's
RENO BAGGER AUDIO
Spazz is offline  
post #9 of 90 (permalink) Old 03-27-2016, 03:38 PM
Hangaround
 
harleytuner's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Fredericksburg, Va.
Posts: 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spazz View Post
You make some valid points... and as a business point of things, you are absolutely correct on easy money for sure. As for dyno-tuning.... I am a hands on guy and appreciate the knowledge of those you can tune from the dyno and would rather that way if I trusted the tech and can stand there and watch and learn from it and how it all comes together. There are plenty of techs out there that can read, understand and work out issues from datalog sessions with the correct data being logged and I am not one of them, but I know a few and envy their knowledge and understanding in this arena.

but I have to ask a question.....

The base tune gets you close ( supposed to anyway ) so you start there. It doesn't matter if you are using AT for a few sessions or running it on the dyno... you still are running 'out of tune' as you put it.... am I correct on this? You have to make adjustments on the dyno as you run it.... so does the AT process.

So if I run an AT session to focus on a certain rpm range and TPS setting... apply it.... check it....it runs better...... is this not the same as running a dyno, tweaking the tune and re-testing?

Im not saying that the AT sessions are as accurate as a true dyno... but the process is basically the same in my eyes...

Correct me if I'm wrong here....
There's a big difference in running a bike "out of tune" in a controlled environment on a dyno, we can see real time how far off the tune is and shut it down and make adjustments. All while monitoring vitals such as engine temp. I start my tunes more old school, I can't speak for others. I still start my target AFR tables all t 13.0 and calibrate the VE's to that, then set the AFR table to what my end goal is then fine tune the cruising (and just outside of cruising ranges to that. So if I start with a MAP that is (for example) 1 AF point mean in let's say 60KPA at 3500 RPM's and I am targeting 13.0 then I get a real reading of 14.0. Now take the same scenario but you are autotuning and autotune has the AFR set to 14.6, now you are getting a real AF at 15.6. while you are data logging.
harleytuner is offline  
post #10 of 90 (permalink) Old 03-27-2016, 04:20 PM
Grey beard
 
'05Train's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: Maryland
Posts: 910
Garage
Harleytuner nailed it. Couple of things.....

- There's more to tuning than setting the Lambda table, optimizing the VEs, and maxing-out the timing to the point at which it doesn't knock. A lot more.

- You have no feedback from your auto tuner. You're counting on your O2 sensors to give you correct information (which they may or may not, depending on what kind they are and whether they're properly located). But you have no clue what kind of power you're making, or if you've got a dip in your curve.

You can do a fine job of self-tuning with the various gadgets out there. You will not do as well as a skilled dyno operator/tuner. If Harleytuner is the gentleman I met at the hospital a couple of weeks ago (and I suspect he is), then his reputation with people I know and trust speaks for him. And it doesn't hurt that he's right.

'05 Night Train, '16 Road Glide Ultra


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
'05Train is offline  
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the Road Glide Forums forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in










Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Linear Mode



Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
To auto-tune, or not to auto-tune Magnum ECM/Fuel Management systems 12 08-27-2014 06:25 PM
More BS from the dealer.......... Wildman *General Road Glide Discussions/Pictures 25 07-18-2013 11:33 PM
auto tune vs no auto tune Jacket4256 ECM/Fuel Management systems 18 06-01-2013 08:12 PM
BS ad by Nissan-Anti Motorcycle Wildman *General Road Glide Discussions/Pictures 20 05-09-2012 10:06 PM
Frame mounted heat deflectors - BS? roadog28 Road Glide Specific Discussions 18 01-27-2012 07:09 AM

Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome