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post #1 of 14 (permalink) Old 04-19-2013, 02:12 PM Thread Starter
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Question Power Vision Auto Tune Basic and Lower Octane Fuel

Will Power Vision's Auto Tune Basic tune properly if lower octane fuel is used? Donít want knocking, or mileage to suffer, though. Iím just wondering.

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post #2 of 14 (permalink) Old 04-19-2013, 03:59 PM
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i was told to go to - program vehicle - go to quick tune- hit the spark tab- hit the ''global option '' and remove 3-4 degrees of timing- then hit save changes and flash ECM
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post #3 of 14 (permalink) Old 04-19-2013, 04:28 PM
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Fat boy ultra is correct. You need to pull a couple degrees of timing to compensate for the lower octane. Timing changes need to be done manually as NO fuel injection auto tuner has the ability to change timing automatically.


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post #4 of 14 (permalink) Old 04-19-2013, 08:22 PM Thread Starter
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I might just give it a try next fill up and see how it runs. Do a couple of Auto Tunes after setting the timing. Can always flash it back. Thanks for the info.

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post #5 of 14 (permalink) Old 04-20-2013, 06:50 AM
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i installed the power vision with basic map from fuel moto . mileage was real low until i used auto tuned basic. mileage was up and she ran good until i got stuck in traffic or cracked the throttle around 3-4 thousand and got bad knock using 93 octane. i used the quick tune and removed 3 degrees of timing and she ran great. however i sent my original auto tune to fuel moto for tweeking because in my travels i have encountered 89 octane premium and regular (87 octane) gasoline only stations and had no choice but to put it in my tank. i want to be able to quick tune in those situations and if i continued to use auto tune with timing removed and remove 3-4 more degrees for low octane fuel i think i would have a problem.
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post #6 of 14 (permalink) Old 04-20-2013, 10:22 PM
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Auto tune basic is a good feature, but remember that it can only tune to the stock narrow band o2 sensors ability. The stock sensors have a very narrow a/f ratio band, and become inaccurate below 14.3 a/f, so your auto tune basic map will be somewhat lean. If your a/f was 13.8 to 14.0 at cruise, you would have less problem with pinging on lower octane fuel.


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post #7 of 14 (permalink) Old 04-23-2013, 09:01 PM
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So this brings up something I've been wondering about.

mocotom you said no EFI tuners can adjust ignition. But my understanding is that PV will pull out timing if it senses knock.

So.... that said, I think we all know that AT basic pulls 4 deg of timing across the board. So, Why not bump up timing 2-3 degrees at a time across the area you think needs timing improvements, then go into AT and do a tune.

Could be hugely flawed idea :-) but it seems semi reasonable way to pull timing back if knock is an issue.

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post #8 of 14 (permalink) Old 04-23-2013, 10:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rageglide View Post
So this brings up something I've been wondering about.

mocotom you said no EFI tuners can adjust ignition. But my understanding is that PV will pull out timing if it senses knock.

So.... that said, I think we all know that AT basic pulls 4 deg of timing across the board. So, Why not bump up timing 2-3 degrees at a time across the area you think needs timing improvements, then go into AT and do a tune.

Could be hugely flawed idea :-) but it seems semi reasonable way to pull timing back if knock is an issue.
Actually it is your factory ECM that has the ability to reduce timing if it senses knock. The Powervision being a flash style system simply allows it to operate the way it was designed. What I meant when I said no tuners adjust timing was that they cannot build a timing map similar to the way they can build or alter a fuel map. Timing maps must be designed by the operator.

You want to advance timing to the point that the motor makes it's best power without excessive head temp. The ion sensing in the Delphi system has it's limits and was not meant to correct aggressive timing tables. It can stop an initial event of pinging in most cases, but if timing is too aggressive and a hot spot occurs the only way to stop the pinging is reducing the throttle.


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post #9 of 14 (permalink) Old 04-23-2013, 11:11 PM
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Thanks mocotom. Very good point and correction, I agree it's the ECM that's doing this, not the PV as the timing changes (and fuel trims) are made regardless of PV being connected. I lost track and somewhat misspoke regarding when the PV is attached and in AT mode, that it's only monitoring the ECM signals and making changes local to the map contained within the PV itself. I lost track of the fact it's not live. oops.

Also I didn't realize the limitations of the knock sensing and honestly never put a lot of confidence in the ion sensing as I've had some pretty horrendous pinging in the past and it sure wasn't handled by the ECM well.

But back to the strategy. If approached with caution it seems we could adjust timing in areas that we beileve are undertimed and let the PV show where the problems are in the logging and adjust accordingly. maybe?

I can't help but feel the map that I'm using is a compromise and it begs to be tweaked. But that said I also do NOT like the way an EFI bike runs when it's had it's timing adjusted per the old school tuning technique you stated. I find the way the engine runs is too edgy/gritty for lack of better descriptors. Certainly more buzzy vibrationwise. I'm not seeking this. A happy compromise is what I seek even it means a few less hp/tq.

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post #10 of 14 (permalink) Old 04-26-2013, 09:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mocotom View Post
Fat boy ultra is correct. You need to pull a couple degrees of timing to compensate for the lower octane. Timing changes need to be done manually as NO fuel injection auto tuner has the ability to change timing automatically.
The power vision has the ability to log knock and export changes to create a new map with improved spark tables. By default autotune doesn't do this, but it can be enabled. I've been told by Jamie at FuelMoto that once a few autotunes have been done for the air/fuel, an autotune where air/fuel is disabled and spark is enable would work well to help eliminate any pinging. Autotune pro with wide band o2 sensors works even better, but even autotune basic with the stock narrow band o2 sensors works well.

A good manual method would be to do a datalogging session with the correct sensors selected, then anywhere in the log file that you saw some knock, remove a degree or 2 of timing, then run again. Repeat this until you get rid of any knock/pinging.
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