Harley Voiding Warranty on 2016 & older bike? - Road Glide Forums
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post #1 of 10 (permalink) Old 07-09-2019, 01:05 PM Thread Starter
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Harley Voiding Warranty on 2016 & older bike?

Okay I know everyone is up in arms about all this junk with the EPA and how it has bit many of us in the butt....

I was watching
on voiding the HD powertrain warranty. Then someone posted this letter. Now the way it reads the requirement to use a EPA compliant tuner only applies to 2017 & newer bikes. What is everyone's take on this?

Hey John. I am going to post a letter that was titled "US EPA tuner calibration communication reminder." I have connections and I was able to get my hands on this letter shortly after it was sent out on March 29, 2019. This letter was put out to dealers by Rob Bradford Director Global Service, Warranty and Customer Care. I think it is only fair that all consumers KNOW the exact verbiage that was submitted to the dealerships regarding this topic. This is straight from the Mo-Co and clear and concise. Here goes....
Dear US Dealers: Harley Davidson service has received questions regarding warranty coverage on motorcycles that have calibrations installed on them that are not approved by the California air resources Board (CARB) or the US Environmental Protective Agency (EPA). This message is to remind you of the details of the EPA Harley Davidson settlement. As communicated in both the dealer letter and dealer news communication of August 18, 2016, Harley Davidson informed the US dealer network of the settlement between Harley Davidson and the EPA. As part of the settlement all 2017 model year and later Harley Davidson's that have been tuned using a tuner or calibration that is not covered by a CARB executive order or otherwise approved by the EPA would have no powertrain warranty. When Harley Davidson is made aware of such modifications a vehicle identification number block is placed on the powertrain; meaning we will, per the settlement deny all warranty claims for functional defects of powertrain components for any Harley Davidson vehicle (model year 2017 or later) registered in the United States. The definition of the powertrain in this instance pertains to the engine and all of its components including the ECM (engine control module), primary drive and transmission including all of its components. As always, if we are made aware in any way of a non-EPA compliant tuner being installed on a model year 2017 and later motorcycle, those VIN numbers will be placed under the VIN Block for the powertrain warranty.
To help you reduce the likelihood of completing warranty work on a motorcycle that has a VIN block placed on it and subsequently having the powertrain warranty claim denied, the Digital Technician (DT) tool is positioned to protect you and we suggest as a best practice the following steps be followed.
1. Instruct your staff to plug the motorcycle into the DT during the service intake process to see if a non-compliant calibration change has been made and the VIN has been blocked.
2. Check the H-DNet, drop-down tab, "my tool box" then "Vehicle Information" to see if the motorcycle has had a VIN block placed on it for any other reason other than a non-compliant calibration under the EPA settlement.
These steps will inform your service personnel have of a non-compliant calibration, prior to starting any warranty repairs and will provide you the opportunity to set the appropriate expectation with the rider. As a reminder, all Harley Davidson branded tuner calibration performance products meet EPA compliance requirements. We encourage you and your staff to watch the video titled "2016 EPA Settlement Compliance" on H-DNet which discusses the settlement and warrantee implications of non-compliant calibrations.
Thank you,
Robert Bradford
Director Global Service, Warranty & Customer Care.

WILDMAN

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post #2 of 10 (permalink) Old 07-09-2019, 01:47 PM
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There is nothing new in this letter weather it is legit or not. Same ole' BS we've been hashing for months now. Some customers believe it, some don't. Some dealers follow it, some don't. Let's move on....



And no, this says nothing about voiding any warranty for TC engines that have a non-EPA compliant tuner.

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post #3 of 10 (permalink) Old 07-09-2019, 02:54 PM
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The voiding of 17 and newer warranties is part of the EPA settlement. The settlement intentionally does not address 16 and older scooters.

But, they can still be required to meet state and federal requirements as far as sound and emissions go.

So why does the settlement exclude 16 and older scooters?

No reason is given by the court. But you can bet it has to do with only the MoCo paying the fine, as opposed to the dealers who retailed those parts and often times performed the tampering paying the fines If the EPA had required that all tampered scooters be inspected and returned to as oem, they would still be in court. And the cost would be measured in billions. So to limit the scope of the legal action, they limited it to scooters not yet delivered to the original purchasers. All of those scooters that dealers tampered with pre delivery could have cost them a cool $45,000.00 plus repairs each. And that would have killed the MoCo, as it dealer network would have been tied up in bankruptcy for the next 7 years.

Now as a rule, the EPA tries to reach consent agreements. Where as offending parts are destroyed or in some cases exported outside of North America. And the perps write a check. There is a page on the EPA site where you can see who got hammered and what they settled on. Right now the EPA is backed up with diesel tampering and imported products that fail to meet emission specs. And they are working with the USDoT on sound compliance. Perhaps moving enforcement over to the EPA. Under the last administration, they were gearing up for a hard look at motorcycles. I think that got benched with the new administration and its desire to go after imports like VW. And as it is now, too much equipment would be required because of the many emissions systems used by motormanufactures. The writing on the wall will be when you see common OBD test connectors and down stream O2 sensors on scooters.

As for motorcycles other issue where some companies wrote checks and changed their business practices, there was some sound testing equipment and training provided to federal law enforcement. Rumor is it went to the US Park service. Thats already being tested in court, as it applied a lower maximum db limit to motor cycles than is applied to heavy trucks.


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post #4 of 10 (permalink) Old 07-09-2019, 03:26 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RGKen View Post
There is nothing new in this letter weather it is legit or not. Same ole' BS we've been hashing for months now. Some customers believe it, some don't. Some dealers follow it, some don't. Let's move on....



And no, this says nothing about voiding any warranty for TC engines that have a non-EPA compliant tuner.
I wasn't very clear in my question and I apologize. I know this is a sore point with newer bike owners and I understand BOTH sides of the issues. Buy a new car or truck and try slapping a tuner on it.... BOOM you no longer have a warranty. How do I know? I had a 2002 Ram 2500 with a CTD in it that the VP pump had gone bad on. Took it to the dealer to get fixed because it was still under 100,000 miles and I got denied because the PO had used a tuner on it. Now I have a 2018 Ram 3500 with a CTD and the service department was VERY CLEAR that if I put a tuner on the truck it would void the powertrain warranty. HD is no different. So I am not sure why everyone is so butt hurt about this.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Thermodyne View Post
The voiding of 17 and newer warranties is part of the EPA settlement. The settlement intentionally does not address 16 and older scooters.

But, they can still be required to meet state and federal requirements as far as sound and emissions go.

So why does the settlement exclude 16 and older scooters?

No reason is given by the court. But you can bet it has to do with only the MoCo paying the fine, as opposed to the dealers who retailed those parts and often times performed the tampering paying the fines If the EPA had required that all tampered scooters be inspected and returned to as oem, they would still be in court. And the cost would be measured in billions. So to limit the scope of the legal action, they limited it to scooters not yet delivered to the original purchasers. All of those scooters that dealers tampered with pre delivery could have cost them a cool $45,000.00 plus repairs each. And that would have killed the MoCo, as it dealer network would have been tied up in bankruptcy for the next 7 years.

Now as a rule, the EPA tries to reach consent agreements. Where as offending parts are destroyed or in some cases exported outside of North America. And the perps write a check. There is a page on the EPA site where you can see who got hammered and what they settled on. Right now the EPA is backed up with diesel tampering and imported products that fail to meet emission specs. And they are working with the USDoT on sound compliance. Perhaps moving enforcement over to the EPA. Under the last administration, they were gearing up for a hard look at motorcycles. I think that got benched with the new administration and its desire to go after imports like VW. And as it is now, too much equipment would be required because of the many emissions systems used by motormanufactures. The writing on the wall will be when you see common OBD test connectors and down stream O2 sensors on scooters.

As for motorcycles other issue where some companies wrote checks and changed their business practices, there was some sound testing equipment and training provided to federal law enforcement. Rumor is it went to the US Park service. Thats already being tested in court, as it applied a lower maximum db limit to motor cycles than is applied to heavy trucks.

What I am trying to figure out from all of this is if the dealership where I bought my bike at is feeding me a line of BS or not? As I was working the deal on my new to me 2015 RGU CVO they offered the ESP for a fair price so I took it. But now they are telling me unless I use the SESPT for tuning my bike I will void the ESP. Part of the deal was to change the exhaust to V&H Power Duals with Krome Werks mufflers. Now they are going to be putting this exhaust on the bike so I am confused in all this. They are knowingly removing the cats in the stock exhaust and install an aftermarket exhaust but then at the same time are turning around and saying I have to use the SESPT. So I am trying to gather some knowledge to argue this with them if they are full of it. If not then I'll live with the SESPT for a while and then swap it out and deal with the voided ESP or just cancel it.

WILDMAN

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post #5 of 10 (permalink) Old 07-09-2019, 04:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wildman View Post
So I am not sure why everyone is so butt hurt about this.
Me neither...



Quote:
Originally Posted by Wildman View Post
What I am trying to figure out from all of this is if the dealership where I bought my bike at is feeding me a line of BS or not? As I was working the deal on my new to me 2015 RGU CVO they offered the ESP for a fair price so I took it. But now they are telling me unless I use the SESPT for tuning my bike I will void the ESP. Part of the deal was to change the exhaust to V&H Power Duals with Krome Werks mufflers. Now they are going to be putting this exhaust on the bike so I am confused in all this. They are knowingly removing the cats in the stock exhaust and install an aftermarket exhaust but then at the same time are turning around and saying I have to use the SESPT. So I am trying to gather some knowledge to argue this with them if they are full of it. If not then I'll live with the SESPT for a while and then swap it out and deal with the voided ESP or just cancel it.
That may be with the HD ESP but I doubt it. There are other ESP's out there that do have some restrictions on the parts that you can use but most tuners are OK. My dealership uses TTS a lot with the 16' (17' ST/Dyna) & earlier TC builds they do and they are even covered by ESP. With that bike there is no way I would want the Street Tuner on it.

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post #6 of 10 (permalink) Old 07-09-2019, 04:36 PM
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Wildman, are there other dealers in your area you can ask and do business with?
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post #7 of 10 (permalink) Old 07-09-2019, 04:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wildman View Post
I wasn't very clear in my question and I apologize. I know this is a sore point with newer bike owners and I understand BOTH sides of the issues. Buy a new car or truck and try slapping a tuner on it.... BOOM you no longer have a warranty. How do I know? I had a 2002 Ram 2500 with a CTD in it that the VP pump had gone bad on. Took it to the dealer to get fixed because it was still under 100,000 miles and I got denied because the PO had used a tuner on it. Now I have a 2018 Ram 3500 with a CTD and the service department was VERY CLEAR that if I put a tuner on the truck it would void the powertrain warranty. HD is no different. So I am not sure why everyone is so butt hurt about this.





What I am trying to figure out from all of this is if the dealership where I bought my bike at is feeding me a line of BS or not? As I was working the deal on my new to me 2015 RGU CVO they offered the ESP for a fair price so I took it. But now they are telling me unless I use the SESPT for tuning my bike I will void the ESP. Part of the deal was to change the exhaust to V&H Power Duals with Krome Werks mufflers. Now they are going to be putting this exhaust on the bike so I am confused in all this. They are knowingly removing the cats in the stock exhaust and install an aftermarket exhaust but then at the same time are turning around and saying I have to use the SESPT. So I am trying to gather some knowledge to argue this with them if they are full of it. If not then I'll live with the SESPT for a while and then swap it out and deal with the voided ESP or just cancel it.
The only tuner they can install is the current SE tuner. Sore point with the MoCo. As I understand it, the MoCo is basically telling the dealers that selling non approved tuning devices is grounds to pull the franchise licence. And of note is that the epa action only dealt with tuning devise sales. Some dealers might fanagle something through the back door, but they are fewer and fewer each year. As for removing the cats, that is something they could be fined for under federal law. And something the MoCo would just rather not know or be bothered with.

I wouldn't want anything to do with that SE flash tuner. Just tell them to deduct its cost and install a Thundermax when you get it home.

Actually just tell them to skip it all and take it off of the bottom line. You can do a lot better exhaust wise too.
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post #8 of 10 (permalink) Old 07-09-2019, 06:28 PM
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Best thing I ever did was void my warranty.


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post #9 of 10 (permalink) Old 07-09-2019, 06:46 PM
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Personally I think the agreement was set on 17 up bikes was because at the time of settlement, 16 and older bikes were quickly running out of manufacture 2 yr warranty. Harley has no say so nor cares on anything other then their 2 yr warranty. As far as I know, I believe all extended service plans are from a third party . Whether not the third-party company covers out of epa compliance bikes is another question.
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post #10 of 10 (permalink) Old 07-09-2019, 08:48 PM
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Never heard of a tuner voiding the HD ESP on a TC.
Agree with thermo....pull the plug on that upgrade from them, contact fuel moto for their headpipe and powervision, and you can use the khromewerks slip ons..I'm no tech, but Ive heard true duals rob torque..FM can get you a base map, and you can autotune or get dyno..room for future mods too..no way any HD tuner is going to get you where you eventually want to go....are there any other skilled HD dealers or Indys around you?...there are HD ESP authorized independents out there...

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