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post #1 of 12 (permalink) Old 08-07-2014, 12:34 AM Thread Starter
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Sumping issue

Hey crew,

I have been forever working on my bike. I will try to condense this a little because it is kind of long. A few months ago I installed the following:

S&S 106
Drago Stg II heads (bigger valves/ported)
SE Adjustable push rods
Gatorman lifters
40 thou head gasket.

(I have had T-man 555c cams for about 15k miles)

Everything went well. It started right up with a little bit of noise but it mostly went a way about 5 or seconds after start up. I had oil pressure of about 32 psi cold at idle and then as it warmed up, it would drop to the normal 5-10 (whatever it reads but it has always been low) After the heat cycles and checking everything over I rode it. I noticed a tick I couldn't get rid of. I adjusted the valves a few times to make sure that wasn't it and swapped lifters with a new set of Gateman's. It was driving me crazy until a valve in the head let go. So, I pulled it apart.

I put it all back together with new parts. I still have a damn tick. Usually this doesn't bother me because I am building up the engine so there is usually a give and take with something but this didn't add up. I re-adjusted valves a few times, pulled the lifters and checked them. Anyway...

Turns out I supposedly had a "sumping" issue. I was told to start the bike and run it until warm. ( I drove it for a few miles in traffic) then shut it off and pull the drain plug. This is where I am confused.

When I pulled the drain plug, oil comes out really quick (as it should) and then tapers off really quickly BUT it never stops flowing. Is it supposed to stop flowing completely? I am told I should get anywhere from 4-5 oz. of oil in the cup all the way to 6-8 oz. but then it will stop?

This initial dump of oil seems to be like a 6 oz. then tapers off like I said but keep flowing. Eventually it would all drain out .

Can anyone help me with this?

Fast forward to now...I have the same 106, Stg II Heads, but this time I added a "Fueling" cam plate "Fueling oil pump "Fueling" lifters and while I was there upgraded to Drago's 580 cams. My head gasket is now a 30 thou instead of a 40.

One thing I can say is the Fueling cam plate is bad ass. As soon as I started it up the oil pressure jumped to 50-55ish. The ticking noise was gone. It was smooth as a sewing machine. I haven't had that for a while now. I ran the bike down the road and put 60-70 miles in it. No issues, everything seems fine.

Well, I was still curious and needed to change the oil so I decided to check for the sumping issue. It did the exact same thing as it did before I changed over to the Fueling stuff. A large amount comes out then it tapers down really fast but never stops flowing.

Anyway, I am just trying to make sure I don't have any issues. Thanks for reading (if you made it to the end.


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'11 RG - Vivid Blk -S&S 106, Dragula 2-1, Drago 580 cams, Drago Stg II Heads, PM Fast Air, PCV with Auto Tune, R6 14.5" bars, DIY Monroe Air Ride.
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post #2 of 12 (permalink) Old 08-07-2014, 12:47 AM
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Do you have the fill cap/dipstick unscrewed before you take the plug out the bottom??
The vent system on these motors doesn't let air in easily so it will sometimes drain dramatically slower if the cap is in.
One of my motors had a leaky umbrella valve in the head, it would whistle and moan while the oil was draining if I didn't have the fill cap unscrewed.

2015 RGU CVO........under continuous change......
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post #3 of 12 (permalink) Old 08-07-2014, 04:16 AM Thread Starter
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Hey bud, thanks for the question. Nope, the fill plug was tight. All I did was shut the bike off, air up the Monroe shocks so I could get shoe box under it and remove the drain plug.

I do have a video each time I did this and on both occasions if pours out really fast then slow to just more than a trickle but never stops. If I could get it to send from my phone I would post it so you could see what I am talking about.

Each time I have had the heads off and apart the breathers have been completely replaced. (even though they had less than 200 miles on them) The guy at Fueling mentioned that it could be one seal stuck so I for sure checked those out.

Another symptom I read is that the bike will smoke and puke oil out of the breathers. Mine did not do any of this. In fact when I sent the heads back in for repair I was told they were bone dry.

I have a feeling that I am okay but just trying to get a good answer to ease my mind and maybe help someone else.

When I put this engine back together this last time, I left the valve covers off and primed the engine. Not much came to the top so I figured I didn't have much to lose and started it up. That is when the oil started flowing. I guess I should have thought about it and mentioned that earlier. The oil flow looked good so I shut it off, buttoned it back up and then spent some time cleaning up the oil mess. (It wasn't real bad)

Any other thoughts? comments?


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'11 RG - Vivid Blk -S&S 106, Dragula 2-1, Drago 580 cams, Drago Stg II Heads, PM Fast Air, PCV with Auto Tune, R6 14.5" bars, DIY Monroe Air Ride.
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post #4 of 12 (permalink) Old 08-07-2014, 05:38 AM
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A slight amount of oil carry-over is normal, and if it was bone dry, there would be reason for LARGE concern.
Sumping is where you see a large amount of oil building in the crankcase to actual inhibit the engines ability to spool up.
Generally that'll rob you of 25-30 hp from a given build, and will give you the sensation of almost putting the brakes on.
Generally caused by incorrect installation of the oil pump O ring.
Saw this back in 2000.......no one had answers......we figured it out.
Scott
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post #5 of 12 (permalink) Old 08-07-2014, 07:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Uncleford View Post
Hey crew,

I have been forever working on my bike. I will try to condense this a little because it is kind of long. A few months ago I installed the following:

S&S 106
Drago Stg II heads (bigger valves/ported)
SE Adjustable push rods
Gatorman lifters
40 thou head gasket.

(I have had T-man 555c cams for about 15k miles)

Everything went well. It started right up with a little bit of noise but it mostly went a way about 5 or seconds after start up. I had oil pressure of about 32 psi cold at idle and then as it warmed up, it would drop to the normal 5-10 (whatever it reads but it has always been low) After the heat cycles and checking everything over I rode it. I noticed a tick I couldn't get rid of. I adjusted the valves a few times to make sure that wasn't it and swapped lifters with a new set of Gateman's. It was driving me crazy until a valve in the head let go. So, I pulled it apart.

I put it all back together with new parts. I still have a damn tick. Usually this doesn't bother me because I am building up the engine so there is usually a give and take with something but this didn't add up. I re-adjusted valves a few times, pulled the lifters and checked them. Anyway...

Turns out I supposedly had a "sumping" issue. I was told to start the bike and run it until warm. ( I drove it for a few miles in traffic) then shut it off and pull the drain plug. This is where I am confused.

When I pulled the drain plug, oil comes out really quick (as it should) and then tapers off really quickly BUT it never stops flowing. Is it supposed to stop flowing completely? I am told I should get anywhere from 4-5 oz. of oil in the cup all the way to 6-8 oz. but then it will stop?

This initial dump of oil seems to be like a 6 oz. then tapers off like I said but keep flowing. Eventually it would all drain out .

Can anyone help me with this?

Fast forward to now...I have the same 106, Stg II Heads, but this time I added a "Fueling" cam plate "Fueling oil pump "Fueling" lifters and while I was there upgraded to Drago's 580 cams. My head gasket is now a 30 thou instead of a 40.

One thing I can say is the Fueling cam plate is bad ass. As soon as I started it up the oil pressure jumped to 50-55ish. The ticking noise was gone. It was smooth as a sewing machine. I haven't had that for a while now. I ran the bike down the road and put 60-70 miles in it. No issues, everything seems fine.

Well, I was still curious and needed to change the oil so I decided to check for the sumping issue. It did the exact same thing as it did before I changed over to the Fueling stuff. A large amount comes out then it tapers down really fast but never stops flowing.

Anyway, I am just trying to make sure I don't have any issues. Thanks for reading (if you made it to the end.
I think your removing the oil plug as if your performing an oil change. If you are checking for sumping you need to remove the plug in the engine case directly below the crankshaft to check for excess oil (no more than 5 oz). Harley's run a dry sump oil system so excess oil in the crank sump will cause a problem as Scott explained. If you do remove this plug to check it, be sure to put a thread sealer on it before re-installing.


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post #6 of 12 (permalink) Old 08-07-2014, 10:09 AM
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+1^^^ What he said.


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post #7 of 12 (permalink) Old 08-08-2014, 08:52 PM
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You never mention how much oil came out ? You need to find out the amount of oil that came out not how it came out.
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post #8 of 12 (permalink) Old 08-09-2014, 10:09 PM
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Delete.

Last edited by INDY #1; 08-09-2014 at 10:34 PM.
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post #9 of 12 (permalink) Old 08-11-2014, 05:56 AM
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I re-read the original post and you mentioned that "a valve let go"???
What was the root cause of that incident?
Scott
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post #10 of 12 (permalink) Old 08-11-2014, 10:02 AM Thread Starter
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Mocotom / Ironmark - You are correct, I am pulling the drain plug. Okay, that makes sense that I am not getting a correct reading. I need to look and see which one it is that I need to pull. The only one that I can remember it the transmission one that unscrews straight down. Where is the other one?

Hillsidecycle - yeah, not 100% on that one. It could have been incorrectly installed OR it could have just been run dry/ no oil.

So far it seems everything is fine. Very little noise out of the engine and it runs pretty decent. When I am finished with the Auto-Tune, I would like to get a dyno to see where I am at HP/TQ wise.


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'11 RG - Vivid Blk -S&S 106, Dragula 2-1, Drago 580 cams, Drago Stg II Heads, PM Fast Air, PCV with Auto Tune, R6 14.5" bars, DIY Monroe Air Ride.
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