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post #61 of 99 (permalink) Old 03-31-2019, 12:31 PM
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Originally Posted by V-man View Post
You're saying that the dealership has NO ability to adjust the fuel map on the dyno with the Pro street tuner installed? If so, that is not what a few dealers have told me... I guess that wouldn't be a surprise...
That's sort of correct. Its a flash tuner, so the map is flashed on as it comes from the MoCo. What the map is not, is built on the dyno. Changes can be made, with a PC and the included software. But there is not much you can do to increase performance. Its mostly about backing spark out for pinging or cold start adjustments and such. And while a dyno might help with an issue like pinging, its not required.

Now if you were a dealer with a $40K dyno sitting in a $20k room, only 1/2 paid for, would you still try to sell its services? It's like tire stores selling tuneups. There is no longer a service procedure for tuneup, but they still sell them.

Past that, write the MoCo a letter, ask them if the new tuner needs a dyno pull for proper installation.


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post #62 of 99 (permalink) Old 03-31-2019, 12:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Thermodyne View Post
That's sort of correct. Its a flash tuner, so the map is flashed on as it comes from the MoCo. What the map is not, is built on the dyno. Changes can be made, with a PC and the included software. But there is not much you can do to increase performance. Its mostly about backing spark out for pinging or cold start adjustments and such. And while a dyno might help with an issue like pinging, its not required.



Now if you were a dealer with a $40K dyno sitting in a $20k room, only 1/2 paid for, would you still try to sell its services? It's like tire stores selling tuneups. There is no longer a service procedure for tuneup, but they still sell them.



Past that, write the MoCo a letter, ask them if the new tuner needs a dyno pull for proper installation.


Bingo ! Basically the new tuner just hosed the dealerships out of all that tuning money. So if a dealer tells you we need 500 dollars to tune you street tuner they are basically doing nothing for 500 dollars !


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post #63 of 99 (permalink) Old 03-31-2019, 02:17 PM
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as someone who has gone through most of the machinations of high performance upgrades to an older evo motorcycle, i am ecstatic that the M8 engine management software is as efficient as it is.

that the factree can control proprietary parameters that will both satisfy regulatory agencies and provide an excellent motorcycling experience is lost on a lot of enthusiasts. independent tuners have had to make substantial investments in testing and other resources in order to catch up.

i personally don't blame the factree for denying claims made on "outlaw" tuners. faced with hefty fines, they really have no choice. if you r&d a product and then sell it to the public, would you want to warranty "experimental" work on that product when it compromises the original intent and/or design?

the realization that there is only so much you can do with a v-twin engine design (that will please it's buying public) is not lost on the factree. every time a newly-revised platform is brought to market it faces extreme criticism from its devotees.

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Last edited by Little Wing; 03-31-2019 at 02:19 PM.
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post #64 of 99 (permalink) Old 03-31-2019, 02:31 PM
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as someone who has gone through most of the machinations of high performance upgrades to an older evo motorcycle, i am ecstatic that the M8 engine management software is as efficient as it is.

that the factree can control proprietary parameters that will both satisfy regulatory agencies and provide an excellent motorcycling experience is lost on a lot of enthusiasts. independent tuners have had to make substantial investments in testing and other resources in order to catch up.

i personally don't blame the factree for denying claims made on "outlaw" tuners. faced with hefty fines, they really have no choice. if you r&d a product and then sell it to the public, would you want to warranty "experimental" work on that product when it compromises the original intent and/or design?

the realization that there is only so much you can do with a v-twin engine design (that will please it's buying public) is not lost on the factree. every time a newly-revised platform is brought to market it faces extreme criticism from its devotees.


In my case the Street Tuner was the problem. Couldn’t get rid of the spark knock. They tried countless times. I guess I could of just rode it till it blew up 1000 miles from home. Guess I am to ocd to ride the bike when it is constantly spark knocking. Drove me insane!


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post #65 of 99 (permalink) Old 03-31-2019, 02:33 PM
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In my case the Street Tuner was the problem. Couldn’t get rid of the spark knock. They tried countless times. I guess I could of just rode it till it blew up 1000 miles from home. Guess I am to ocd to ride the bike when it is constantly spark knocking. Drove me insane!
yeah i remember that fiasco.

i guess the software is so proprietary they can't train the dealers lol

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post #66 of 99 (permalink) Old 03-31-2019, 02:42 PM
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yeah i remember that fiasco.



i guess the software is so proprietary they can't train the dealers lol


It’s ridiculous really. New bike and tack on the motor build exhaust and tuner and it’s over 30 grand. They can’t make the thing run properly. Should of left it stock.


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post #67 of 99 (permalink) Old 03-31-2019, 03:01 PM
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I've never understood why we Harley guys get so upset about losing warranty by doing performance mods
Its not that for me.
My anger towards the MoCo would be in regards to a known failure or recall, Then trying to blame the mods I did to the bike for an issue that even occurs on stock engines/bikes. (eg: losing a trans due to oil migration) they would somehow find a way to blame the mods rather than admit they have issues that they havent solved.
Thats why I will gladly wave bye bye to my warranty in the next few weeks, and intentionally take the bike to the dealership after my NON harley stage 2 to have the fan activated for the fan assisted oil cooler, and have one of those new flip keys programmed to the bike. Then harley can flag my VIN to their little hearts content.

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post #68 of 99 (permalink) Old 03-31-2019, 06:53 PM
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If a dealer tries to sell you a dyno pull to go with your new stage kit, walk away. Or better yet check your wallet and run.
There is nothing the dyno will do except for printing a pull sheet. Its like back when the 103's cam out and dealers were including dyno pulls with the build slips. Then tacking $80 onto the prep.

As for the auto tuner. The way the MoCo advertises it is wrong. It tunes for the whole rpm range. It just has a wider view of the fuel mix so its still trimming fuel long after the map left the narrow band sensors view. Under high load and throttle settings, the fuel map is not within what the narrow band sensor can read. So when the motor is wide open and pulling hard at 60mph the motor runs off the map, or open loop. It may or may not be getting the intended amount of fuel, so the map is biased lean, so as to never exceed the epa limit. With the auto tuners wide band sensors, the fuel is still being trimmed under those conditions, so the map is as rich as the epa will allow. It still wont let you cross the epa limit, but it will let you lean on it. Now, with all of that said, the edges of the map are still hard. Can't cross over into the land of power. And if you get to far away from the parts Harley sells, its going to set the Check Money light.

There are some folks working to figure out how to get auto tuner maps to flash on without the Auto tuner being installed. That would help a lot in the upper rpm range.
So I guess what your saying is we are better off with our older Roadglides? Seems like the MoCo is really going to tie your hands on proper tuning, at least what we consider proper tuning? If so that really sucks. Hopefully someone finds a way around this. Now I am even happier I kept my 2011.

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post #69 of 99 (permalink) Old 03-31-2019, 06:56 PM
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I should of kept my 16. Stupid mistake that I will never make again.


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post #70 of 99 (permalink) Old 03-31-2019, 08:13 PM
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It seems the new strategy is stock except for slip-ons until warranty is over, then aftermarket warranty (or not) and Indie for tuning and/or performance upgrades.

At least that's what I'm told... even by the honest/knowledgeable techs at some of the dealers.

Imo this is gonna hurt the Moco's bottom line no matter how ya slice it.

Last edited by V-man; 03-31-2019 at 08:16 PM.
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