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ALERT - Please read or you might void your HD warranty

30K views 98 replies 39 participants last post by  Desert Rider AZ 
#1 ·
I was just at my local Harley Davidson dealership today here in Tampa Bay and a service advisor that I have a very good relationship with let me in on something that just came down from HD headquarters to ALL HD dealers.

Starting NOW if anyone brings in their Harley for service and it has any fuel pack other then the Screamin Eagle it will trigger an alert they will void the warranty with includes factory and extended. Normally when you have your bike serviced, including oil changes, most HD Dealers plug in to your diagnostic port. In the past we all knew adding a Fuel pack COULD void the warranty but the word was if you had a good relationship with your dealership they could overlook it. Again this is any HD dealership and may or may not include authorized HD repair shops.

This was brought on by a few customers that mapped their bikes incorrectly which caused engine problems then expected Harley to fix it. The Dealers were also told not to work on the any bike with any FP other then SE, including of course the very popular VH Fuel Pack many of us may or may not have. I can understand why HD resorted to this but it fills as if HD has become yet another corporate company and not the rebel bike builder we have loved and grew up with.

SO BE WARNED map your bike to factory and remove your non SE FP before taking it in for service.
 
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#2 ·
This has really been the MoCo's stance ever since they came out with the M8 in 2017. The difference was that like you say, some dealerships were going against it and making a sale on aftermarket stuff anyway. The MoCo is getting wiser and implementing new techniques to get more dealerships to follow the rules. It's not that HD is going more corporate but more that the EPA is keeping wraps on the company and not letting it slide back to where it was. HD did have to pay some very hefty penalties a few years ago so they are probably a bit gun shy.

On a similar note... I was talking to a friend at a local power sport dealer the other day and he said he has now heard of 2 motorcyclist getting pulled over here in the great state of FL and the cop put the sniffer in the tailpipe to check the emissions level. I don't have any other details like if that is the sole reason they were pulled over or if they were pulled for something else and the cop decided to sheck emissions as well. I hope this isn't where we are headed but in todays world it would not surprise me.
 
#8 ·
I didn't know fl had emissions testing
 
#3 ·
I still wonder how this will play out long term. While the EPA agreement is pretty clear on the issue it seems completely contrary to the law. Magnuson-Moss act is pretty unambivalent that this is unlawful behavior. It seems as if the EPA and the FTC are at odds on this.
 
#32 ·
The Magnusson-Moss Act of 1973 DOES NOT protect you from committing federal crimes. Defeating ANY EPA-compliant portions of the vehicle's emission controls, such as taking out cats or retuning the bike, is against the law. You're on your own.

Gotta save the original map and upload back to the bike before taking it to the dealer.
Won't work. The ECM's memory shows that there have been changes. If you don't own a Screamin' Eagle Pro Street Tuner, you're screwed.

I have read somewhere, probably in another thread, that any aftermarket tuner can be detected by the dealer even if you return your tune map back to the original Harley stock tune. The ECM records and saves any mod to the stock tune even if you return it to stock temporarily. This applies to 17 and later M8 bikes.
Also Harley recently got fined a second time by the EPA for not monitoring their dealers that ignored the settlement agreement reached between the EPA and the MOCO.
I had not heard that Harley got fined again!! Do you have any more info?

That would certainly explain why they're getting even more hard-ass than they have been. Seriously, they'll void your warranty faster than you can blink. And, dealers that were looking the other way in '17 and '18 sure aren't doing that any more.
 
#5 ·
I was wonder about them stating an officer used a sniffer in Florida. FL does not have a requirement for vehicle inspections or emissions control inspections. I have done a search to see if I could fine something that would/could justify an officer checking emission output on a vehicle and to what standard/law would the officer site? Now that does not mean there is not something on the books, but it would seem it is not easy for me to find anyway, maybe I am looking in the wrong place. Maybe the officer was checking noise level and as the story progressed, it was changed to emissions levels. Noise level in Florida is something that there are rules about.
 
#9 ·
After reading this I have to say that I was never told it was a police officer I only assumed. They said they were pulled and had the sniffer stuck up the tailpipe. Sorry for the confusion. It could be embellished but I don't know what the motivation would be from the person I talked to.
 
#6 ·
Now back to the original post, that is why I did the HD tune. Now, after my warranty is out, (there have been times HD has covered some repairs after the two years. They have done it for me, but it was within the third year and I was the original buyer), I will put any tuner I want on my bike.
 
#7 ·
Its not Harleys stance. Its the agreement they made with the Feds/EPA over the tampering violations.

Harley dealers are not allowed to service scooters that have non approved tuning devices on them. At the moment only the SE epa tuner is approved by Harley. The dealers are only allowed to install Harley approved maps, and no dyno tunes are allowed. Some dealers follow it to the letter, some sort of see it as a guide line, and some still dyno tune. This dealer probably just got a letter from Milwaukee documenting how many tampered scooters his shop had worked on and how it could effect their ability to order desirable scooters moving forward.

Harley also installed software that reports the state of the ecm to them every time the Tech tool is connected. The software will tell them if you installed an aftermarket remapper on the scooter.

Harley cracked down of some Fla dealers last year during speed weeks, and word was that there would be more enforcement this year. I doubt that the MoCo really has much desire to be policing this, but in exchange for not having their dealer network raped by the EPA, they agreed to do it.

As far as the warranty is concerned, they would have to prove that the tuner caused or contributed to the failure. But that would basically force you to pay a lawyer more than the cost of the repair, and they know it.
 
#16 ·
I ran into this when I purchased my 17 RGU. I put on the V&H exhaust, tuner and a Ness Breather. Harley dealer told me I voided my warranty. They had no problem putting in the Stage IV kit though. My bike is out of warranty at this point so....it did not really matter.
 
#17 ·
I have read somewhere, probably in another thread, that any aftermarket tuner can be detected by the dealer even if you return your tune map back to the original Harley stock tune. The ECM records and saves any mod to the stock tune even if you return it to stock temporarily. This applies to 17 and later M8 bikes.
Also Harley recently got fined a second time by the EPA for not monitoring their dealers that ignored the settlement agreement reached between the EPA and the MOCO.
 
#18 ·
I know Iam REALLY showing my age, but if your so "worried" about your factory warranty, leave the bike stock until such time you are ready to accept the consequences of engine failure. I just don't see how people expect HD to warranty anything that's modified beyond their parts or how it rolled off the assemble line...…….YMMV
 
#25 ·
This is all nothing new. The dealer/MoCo can get into your ECM and tell what you have done, and void your warranty if you flash or have flashed with a non HD tuner. It doesn't matter if you return the bike to stock, and stock tune - the bread crumbs are there.

Best to just keep the bike unchanged for the warranty period and then start adding non-HD upgrades after that. The M8 is reasonably fast right off the showroom floor anyway.

I have to say, my PV tuner, Big Sucker and HOs made a big difference with my 2017 RGS, but this was all done after the 2yr warranty.
 
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#31 ·
This is life under a heavy hand agenda drive EPA. Blame GD all you want. It goes a lot higher. Warranty ran out on my 2017 , plus sidecar void some not all of it. Don't care my ride ride I will do with it as I please and the EPA can go...
 
#34 ·
I continue to be amazed at how many people think that the engineers who designed the ECM don't understand the ECM, but people on "the internet" know more than the engineers do.

Trust me, the MoCo engineers are not stupid.

And, there is no way in hell that the senior management group of the Harley-Davidson Motor Company is going to tell the EPA, "Yes, we know we're supposed to be following the Consent Decree, but unfortunately, we have no way of knowing whether or not a dealership or customer has retuned their bike using a forbidden tuner module. Sorry."

Yeah, no.
 
#39 ·
oh thanks for the update, I knew that cause lets face it HD are corporate scheisters. They need to be able to compete in the market, but it seems they lead the market. But when you have other bike like Ducati or Honda, now I realized that HD isnt working to better there customers, HD is working to cover there ass and in the long run make a profit, increase revenue, trim the fat below (Trim down on expenses which means letting go of employees who may be getting paid to much) and hiring some young gun who maybe fresh off the street, trying to establish themselves. Looks familiar doesnt it, it should, there using the same model every big company uses to stay afloat.

They tried charging me $100 on a RECALL (which means=IT IS THERE FU%%%N FAULT), excuse my french. Why you ask, because I removed my entire stock exhaust system, and put on straight pipes. Do you know what there reason was, because they couldn't reach the clutch actuator with the straight pipes as opposed to the pipes with the cats in them. I hate them!, I REALLY REALLY DO!!! I LOST IT over the phone, I SCREAMED at the service manager . So they were like 'oh you should never take off the cats, because its bad for the bike. (BTW, My recall was on the clutch actuator on my 2018 Road Glide which I bought bRAND Spanking NEW in July 2018). So the service manager calls me back and says we have to charge you $60. Then I said to myself, you want the $60 bucks that bad, take it dude. I paid them and I got my bike back. My bike has the Vance and Hynes FP3 FuelPak on it. I had to remap it when i got it back and ,thank God, its back to normal.

So whats the moral of the story, don't ever bring your bike to any Harley Dealer to fix something. There part of that Corporate Greed we all hear about from big companies all the time. Bring it to your local mom and pop Harley store and have them fix it. And there's a reason why your local mom and pop store is always busy, its because they don't fuck you like Harley dealers do and that they do good work. People are not stupid, not all are smart and some are nieve. For those that are nieve, hopefully they learn quickly before it gets to be to late. Just another lesson learned.

A dealer is there to just buy the motorcycle, after that I am GONE!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
#40 ·
You have the wrong dealership. Mine has a sidecar on it the had to pull the body to get in to do the recall. No charge.
 
#44 ·
Ok after reading all these post I am pissed ! 2018 RGU bought in June 2018. Had the stage 3 done before Del and bought the utter POS street tuner. From day one had bad spark knock. Had it back to the dealer 4 times and they could not tune the spark knock out of it. Ok so I buy a Power Vision they supposedly tune the bike and give it back to me. Spark knock is worse and bike is getting 29 mpg. Wtf ! So this winter I take it to Darren at Sheffer Performance HD in Evansville IN. He has the bike a couple weeks and does data logging on the dyno. Rear cylinder is set at 17-1 AF at cruise speed. No wonder it’s spark knocking on the interstate. So I spent the money for the Power Vision and the Money for the SEPST and the auto tune and still had to pay someone to tune the bike because HD is incompetent and can’t tune a bike !
I hear Ya, Bro! On my 2018 the lifters went- warranty job. Dealer talks me into a stage 2 mostly on Harley's dime, Pro Street Tuner, some other bits...

Bike runs horrible, back to dealer 3 times, to another dealer after that, and they say I'm SOL. They can only use the Harley maps, and even with a $500 Dyno-tune, they're only allowed to deviate about 10% from the original map...

They suck. Guess I have to wait 'til my warranty is up...:frown:
 
#42 ·
From: SOMEONE WHOSE BIKE HAS BEEN INSIDE A DEALERS SHOP MAYBE TWICE IN EIGHT YEARS ...

So you are saying , regardless of warranty status , they read the ECM for any visit now and if it has been flashed , they will not work on the bike ??

Some one tell me , why not get a second ECM , run it for several months , return the flashed one to the bike , and if you have an issue , swap them out ?? Does the ECM record everything , like tracking mileage etc ??

Not much of an issue , unless you break down on the road and don't have access to any tools or shop ..
 
#43 ·
From: SOMEONE WHOSE BIKE HAS BEEN INSIDE A DEALERS SHOP MAYBE TWICE IN EIGHT YEARS ...



So you are saying , regardless of warranty status , they read the ECM for any visit now and if it has been flashed , they will not work on the bike ??



Some one tell me , why not get a second ECM , run it for several months , return the flashed one to the bike , and if you have an issue , swap them out ?? Does the ECM record everything , like tracking mileage etc ??



Not much of an issue , unless you break down on the road and don't have access to any tools or shop ..


Most, if not all, shops don't have enough digital techs to go around so there is no way they can hook it up to every bike that comes in. They would mostly just hook it up if needed to diagnose an electrical issue or update software. The ECM does keep track of mileage so that would have to be a work around. Best thing is to either stick with the MoCo upgrades to keep warranty in tack if that is your concern or say screw it and do what you want and take the responsibility. I've never understood why we Harley guys get so upset about losing warranty by doing performance mods and we would never bat an eye about when doing the same to our cars. I think we've just been spoiled for a while now and reality is just setting in.


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#54 ·
Have any of you run the auto tune for the H-D tuner? My dealership said they had a problem with tuning a bike after a stage 4 install but said after the auto tune was added it solved it. They could have been blowing smoke up my ass also.


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#58 ·
Have any of you run the auto tune for the H-D tuner? My dealership said they had a problem with tuning a bike after a stage 4 install but said after the auto tune was added it solved it. They could have been blowing smoke up my ass also.
I was told that the Auto tune unit is also limited to the amount of fuel it can deliver over the Moco map. This makes obvious sense.

I was thinking about giving it a shot, but an honest tech explained that it would be no better results than dyno tuning the Pro street tuner- basically the Moco isn't allowed enough deviation from the base map to make a difference on the dyno or with the Smart tune pro automatic tuning module.

I'm left with the impression that they either one may help a bit- but the bike will still be way too lean in the end.
 
#56 ·
Matt Laidlaw who owns the largest HD dealer in LA county put out a video addressing this discussion this a couple of days ago which tells me he to is trying to get the word out after the Mother Ship conference. Of course Matt is in California so he has to deal with much more then the other 49 states do but he did have a good point. He said if caught with a non HD fuel pack it will void the warrenty on the engine but not the entire bike.

Worth a watch

 
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#59 ·
If a dealer tries to sell you a dyno pull to go with your new stage kit, walk away. Or better yet check your wallet and run.
There is nothing the dyno will do except for printing a pull sheet. Its like back when the 103's cam out and dealers were including dyno pulls with the build slips. Then tacking $80 onto the prep.

As for the auto tuner. The way the MoCo advertises it is wrong. It tunes for the whole rpm range. It just has a wider view of the fuel mix so its still trimming fuel long after the map left the narrow band sensors view. Under high load and throttle settings, the fuel map is not within what the narrow band sensor can read. So when the motor is wide open and pulling hard at 60mph the motor runs off the map, or open loop. It may or may not be getting the intended amount of fuel, so the map is biased lean, so as to never exceed the epa limit. With the auto tuners wide band sensors, the fuel is still being trimmed under those conditions, so the map is as rich as the epa will allow. It still wont let you cross the epa limit, but it will let you lean on it. Now, with all of that said, the edges of the map are still hard. Can't cross over into the land of power. And if you get to far away from the parts Harley sells, its going to set the Check Money light.

There are some folks working to figure out how to get auto tuner maps to flash on without the Auto tuner being installed. That would help a lot in the upper rpm range.
 
#60 ·
If a dealer tries to sell you a dyno pull to go with your new stage kit, walk away. Or better yet check your wallet and run.
There is nothing the dyno will do except for printing a pull sheet.
You're saying that the dealership has NO ability to adjust the fuel map on the dyno with the Pro street tuner installed? If so, that is not what a few dealers have told me... I guess that wouldn't be a surprise...
 
#63 · (Edited)
as someone who has gone through most of the machinations of high performance upgrades to an older evo motorcycle, i am ecstatic that the M8 engine management software is as efficient as it is.

that the factree can control proprietary parameters that will both satisfy regulatory agencies and provide an excellent motorcycling experience is lost on a lot of enthusiasts. independent tuners have had to make substantial investments in testing and other resources in order to catch up.

i personally don't blame the factree for denying claims made on "outlaw" tuners. faced with hefty fines, they really have no choice. if you r&d a product and then sell it to the public, would you want to warranty "experimental" work on that product when it compromises the original intent and/or design?

the realization that there is only so much you can do with a v-twin engine design (that will please it's buying public) is not lost on the factree. every time a newly-revised platform is brought to market it faces extreme criticism from its devotees.
 
#64 ·
In my case the Street Tuner was the problem. Couldn’t get rid of the spark knock. They tried countless times. I guess I could of just rode it till it blew up 1000 miles from home. Guess I am to ocd to ride the bike when it is constantly spark knocking. Drove me insane!


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