Road Glide banner

1 - 20 of 21 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
822 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
Greetings
So yesterday Trixie was running fine, except for a mild hesitation coming of the line at a few intersections. That didn't really stick out as I've got the idle set (with SEPST) to 800RPMs...so it can happen.

But...

Last night I went out (or tried to) for cigarettes, and she fell flat on her face coming out of the driveway. Bucking, spitting, throttle was barely responsive.. She acted like she was out of gas...even though the tank is almost half full.

Problem persisted this morning when bike was completely cold:
  • It starts a bit reluctantly, but ok.
  • It will rev sitting still...but is somewhat sluggish.
  • Trying to take off it has no power, and immediately starts acting like it is running out of gas.
  • No engine light, and the only DTC is P0562 (low battery) that is several months old.
In the last couple of weeks I have noticed that the fuel pump has gotten a bit louder. It originally was a soft hum, now it's a bit ragged sounding ... Not real loud...but noticeable.

Now I've been wrenching my own ride since my teens, but I'm a bit new to this EFI stuff (last bike was an 87 FLHTP). And since HD stands for Hundred Dollars...I thought I'd run my hypothesis past you folks to see if it made any since to anyone else that might be a bit more familiar with this critter. Meanwhile my - project bike - 1981 Shovelhead FLTC named Alice just became my primary mount.

So... Looks like a duck, walks like a duck, quacks like a duck ... Sure it could be an Ostrich, But... I'm thinking the fuel pump is taking - or has taken - a shit ... Make sense to anyone else??

Thank you,

Stoic Joker
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
8,856 Posts
Greetings
So yesterday Trixie was running fine, except for a mild hesitation coming of the line at a few intersections. That didn't really stick out as I've got the idle set (with SEPST) to 800RPMs...so it can happen.

But...

Last night I went out (or tried to) for cigarettes, and she fell flat on her face coming out of the driveway. Bucking, spitting, throttle was barely responsive.. She acted like she was out of gas...even though the tank is almost half full.

Problem persisted this morning when bike was completely cold:
  • It starts a bit reluctantly, but ok.
  • It will rev sitting still...but is somewhat sluggish.
  • Trying to take off it has no power, and immediately starts acting like it is running out of gas.
  • No engine light, and the only DTC is P0562 (low battery) that is several months old.
In the last couple of weeks I have noticed that the fuel pump has gotten a bit louder. It originally was a soft hum, now it's a bit ragged sounding ... Not real loud...but noticeable.

Now I've been wrenching my own ride since my teens, but I'm a bit new to this EFI stuff (last bike was an 87 FLHTP). And since HD stands for Hundred Dollars...I thought I'd run my hypothesis past you folks to see if it made any since to anyone else that might be a bit more familiar with this critter. Meanwhile my - project bike - 1981 Shovelhead FLTC named Alice just became my primary mount.

So... Looks like a duck, walks like a duck, quacks like a duck ... Sure it could be an Ostrich, But... I'm thinking the fuel pump is taking - or has taken - a shit ... Make sense to anyone else??

Thank you,

Stoic Joker
Look in the fuel tank and see if there is gas coming out of the fuel line. You can also fill the tank, and if it solves your problem, it's probably a split fuel line . It could also be a oblonged pick up.

Have you changed your fuel filter ?
 
  • Like
Reactions: RGKen

·
Registered
Joined
·
822 Posts
Discussion Starter #5
Assuming the steering head is at 12:00, there is a rush of fuel coming from about 4:00. I can't tell where it's coming from...the lines aren't really visible.

I'd been told - unlike the older EFI bikes - the fuel filters on the 10s weren't an issue, but I'm open for second opinions under the circumstances... :)
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
1,835 Posts
Start with the fuel filter. Once you get that out and take a look at it compared to a new one you will probably solve the issue. It is relatively easy to get at when you know the tricks.

Remove the seat. Remove the left side cover. Remove the 40amp master fuse. Remove bolts that hold on the tanks console. Remove the gas cap and then take off the dash console, replace the gas cap. Use a small flat blade screwdriver to remove the wire plug at the 1 o clock position from the gas cap assembly. remove the overflow hose from the barbed fitting.

Siphon out the gas in the tank now to a suitable fuel storage container, then replace the gas cap again

Using a large flat blade screwdriver wrapped in cloth or couple layers of microfiber towel along with a dead blow hammer to rotate the cam lock ring counter clockwise. When the ring is loose remove it and note the stamping on it for "top". This should go back on in the same position it was removed.

Now you can lift up the fuel cap assembly, use the small flat blade screwdriver to remove the black ground wire on the fuel cap assembly at the 11 o clock position. Use the same small flat blade screw driver to remove the electrical plug underneath the fuel cap assembly at the 1 o clock position(directly under the top wire plug)

With those wires disconnected you pull up on the assembly, you will need to reach in and disconnect the line from the pump to the filter assembly (small diameter line) and also disconnect the line to goes to the exit of the tank to the throttle body. You may also have to reach in to the right side of the tank to unclip the suction line from the clip. The fuel filter assembly is easy to take apart and the new one should come with a new o-ring.

Re-assemble in the reverse order obviously.

Going from memory, as always consult your service manual for your year and model of bike.


Calgaryglide
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
6,640 Posts
Just because the fuel filter canister problem was fixed in 08 it doesn't mean that the fuel filter does not get dirty. :wink:
Start with the fuel filter first and you can change it without pulling the fuel pump out, you can just pull the filter canister up to the top of the tank and swap out the filter, you just have to be a little more careful.
Next thing would be a cracked/broken fuel line, the best way to check for that is to fill the fuel tank with fuel and if the bike runs fine and then starts to run shitty when the fuel level drops then chances are the fuel lines are the problem.
800 rpm is too low get that rpm up to at least 950. Everyone want to get that old potato potato sound out of their newer bikes but they are just robbing the battery from critical voltage and robbing oil flow from the top end of the engine.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
822 Posts
Discussion Starter #8
Just because the fuel filter canister problem was fixed in 08 it doesn't mean that the fuel filter does not get dirty. :wink:
Yes, but the question becomes how fast does it get how dirty? From what I've heard the earlier models 'required' changing every 10,000 miles...and I've put almost 20,000 on the 10. There was 38,000 on the clock when I got her so I've not a clue what the maintenance history was during that time. Maybe it was time (normal), or maybe it was just a really bad tank of gas (unlikely).

Honestly, after running an Evo for 20 years (without any filter) I was more Leery of the damn computer deciding to lightbulb on me. I've always kind of hated the damn things...even though I work in IT.


Start with the fuel filter first and you can change it without pulling the fuel pump out, you can just pull the filter canister up to the top of the tank and swap out the filter, you just have to be a little more careful.
Much as I appreciate - and was impressed by - the detailed procedure listed above, I was planning on trying to do it this way just to see if I could ... So it's nice to know it is possible.


800 rpm is too low get that rpm up to at least 950. Everyone want to get that old potato potato sound out of their newer bikes but they are just robbing the battery from critical voltage and robbing oil flow from the top end of the engine.
Back in the 80's I spent 3 months tweaking the stock CV carb on an 82 FLT to get it to hold a 250rpm idle. I could let it sit there for up to 5 minutes letting it hold that idle sounding for all the world like a hit-or-miss engine. It always drew a crowd, and somebody in that crowd would invariable start evangelizing the same dire warnings. But in the 5 years I had it in the bike they never came true.

I pulled the Shovel out, dropped in an Evo and put the Shovel in a hardtail framed bar-hopper, that I sold to a friend that rode it for several years and then sold it to another guy who also had it for a few years ... none of which had any issues with the still then crowd drawlingly low idle.

So if the "damage" takes longer than that to manifest...I guess it can't be that big a deal.

The main reason I picked up the SEPST was due to the factory idle settings driving me nutz. When it started (hot or cold) it would sot at 1,600rpms for almost 5 minutes before dropping low enough to not make ones butt tighten when dropping into first because it sounded like the cases were being torn in half. Granted this was partially a stock/fragged compensator's fault...but that's another story.

Now I realize that EFI killed the classic Harley staccato idle, and I remember well reading the articles about how hard the factory tried to get the computer to reproduce it. But the - when finally warm - stock 1,000rpm idle while quite smooth was eerily (Japanese) just too smooth. So it had to go. At 800rpms the volt meter in the faring is always happy, and the 2 years old that I know of battery that was in the bike when I got her still spins her up just fine. *Shrug* :)

Speaking of things that just had to go ... The FBW limp dicked (Traction control?) throttle response also got tossed out the window at that point as I completely flattened the map to a straight 1:1 so the throttle now does WTF I tell it to instead of meekly peaking open based on what it thinks I need.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,197 Posts
Humm, no bragging on the 100k+ that only I have put on 03 FLTRI and never been inside the tank.
Seems there some critical tinkering that's gone unnoticed, causing
stress or supporting step in the process.

Most of us know you take an Iron head and tweak em to walk away from you like it' a one legged man in an ass kicking contest, and still stay on the stand.

Take you already de-engineered and have the same results?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,933 Posts
As long as you are going to be in there, change the filter, check the fuel line (I suspect this is what it is), to check the fuel pump before you pull it apart, check pressure with a gauge at the quick disconnect first to rule confirm it is fuel tank related.. Even though the filter could be clogged, it should slowly build up to around 50 psi or a little more. Turn off the ignition and watch the fuel gauge, if it drops down quickly probably the fuel line. Fuel pumps do go bad, but see very few. Also, if you want to make a tool to get the ring off to get the pump out, at Lowes or Home Depot you get a, can't remember, 4" or 3" coupling and a plug with the raised up part to put a crescent wrench on. You glue that in after you have ground out the slots that fit the ring on the gas tank ring. Dang, my memory gets to me, it could even be a bigger fitting, but you get the picture on how to make one on the cheap. Good luck.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
8,856 Posts
Yes, but the question becomes how fast does it get how dirty? From what I've heard the earlier models 'required' changing every 10,000 miles...and I've put almost 20,000 on the 10. There was 38,000 on the clock when I got her so I've not a clue what the maintenance history was during that time. Maybe it was time (normal), or maybe it was just a really bad tank of gas (unlikely).

Honestly, after running an Evo for 20 years (without any filter) I was more Leery of the damn computer deciding to lightbulb on me. I've always kind of hated the damn things...even though I work in IT.




Much as I appreciate - and was impressed by - the detailed procedure listed above, I was planning on trying to do it this way just to see if I could ... So it's nice to know it is possible.




Back in the 80's I spent 3 months tweaking the stock CV carb on an 82 FLT to get it to hold a 250rpm idle. I could let it sit there for up to 5 minutes letting it hold that idle sounding for all the world like a hit-or-miss engine. It always drew a crowd, and somebody in that crowd would invariable start evangelizing the same dire warnings. But in the 5 years I had it in the bike they never came true.

I pulled the Shovel out, dropped in an Evo and put the Shovel in a hardtail framed bar-hopper, that I sold to a friend that rode it for several years and then sold it to another guy who also had it for a few years ... none of which had any issues with the still then crowd drawlingly low idle.

So if the "damage" takes longer than that to manifest...I guess it can't be that big a deal.

The main reason I picked up the SEPST was due to the factory idle settings driving me nutz. When it started (hot or cold) it would sot at 1,600rpms for almost 5 minutes before dropping low enough to not make ones butt tighten when dropping into first because it sounded like the cases were being torn in half. Granted this was partially a stock/fragged compensator's fault...but that's another story.

Now I realize that EFI killed the classic Harley staccato idle, and I remember well reading the articles about how hard the factory tried to get the computer to reproduce it. But the - when finally warm - stock 1,000rpm idle while quite smooth was eerily (Japanese) just too smooth. So it had to go. At 800rpms the volt meter in the faring is always happy, and the 2 years old that I know of battery that was in the bike when I got her still spins her up just fine. *Shrug* :)

Speaking of things that just had to go ... The FBW limp dicked (Traction control?) throttle response also got tossed out the window at that point as I completely flattened the map to a straight 1:1 so the throttle now does WTF I tell it to instead of meekly peaking open based on what it thinks I need.
Back in the 80's I spent 3 months tweaking the stock CV carb on an 82 FLT to get it to hold a 250rpm idle.

I hope working on bikes ain't your day job. :)
 
  • Like
Reactions: JacktheBagger

·
Registered
Joined
·
6,640 Posts
So if the "damage" takes longer than that to manifest...I guess it can't be that big a deal.

The main reason I picked up the SEPST was due to the factory idle settings driving me nutz. When it started (hot or cold) it would sot at 1,600rpms for almost 5 minutes before dropping low enough to not make ones butt tighten when dropping into first because it sounded like the cases were being torn in half.
So damage to the engine is OK in your book just as long as it takes a lot of time for the damage to show up. Sounds like you're more interested is letting your bike idle at the bar and impress people with a low idle then protecting the engine.

If your bike starts cold or hot at 1600 rpm and stays there for 5 minutes then there is a problem somewhere in either the ECM idle setting or the cylinder head temp sensor or you have a vacum leak just to mention a few possible problems.
Also the fuel filter needs to be changed more often because the fuel injection system is under pressure and a dirty fuel filter will drop the pressure to the injectors which will cause running issues.
Not beating you up here but if you get the idle around 950 rpm the bike will be better off and you will have better throttle response.

By the way HD FBW throttle body does not have traction control.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
822 Posts
Discussion Starter #13
Stoic Joker said:
Back in the 80's I spent 3 months tweaking the stock CV carb on an 82 FLT to get it to hold a 250rpm idle.
I hope working on bikes ain't your day job. :)
Any more no, but it was back then. And while setting the idle low isn't any big deal, getting it to hold that idle warm, cold, or hot in traffic is an entirely different matter. It takes time to see exactly how stable the idle will be in all conditions, and the bike was my primary transportation.

Not to mention that hand drilling jets - because the EPA approved carbs of the time were a bit cantankerous - is not something one should ever rush through.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
822 Posts
Discussion Starter #14
So damage to the engine is OK in your book just as long as it takes a lot of time for the damage to show up. Sounds like you're more interested is letting your bike idle at the bar and impress people with a low idle then protecting the engine.
Nope, I just thought it would be fun to do, and I rather enjoyed it. However the slow idle contest was a rather popular event at bike week back then.

My current 1981 Shovelhead FLTC idles at 500rpms quite happily these days. I might try to push it lower later, but for now it's fine.

If your bike starts cold or hot at 1600 rpm and stays there for 5 minutes then there is a problem somewhere in either the ECM idle setting or the cylinder head temp sensor or you have a vacuum leak just to mention a few possible problems.
...Or, maybe that's just the way it was set ... Because that actually happens to be...just the way it was set. The bikes behavior matched the tuning files exactly. Why it was that way... Damn-If-I-Know ...I'm the just 2nd owner. :)


Also the fuel filter needs to be changed more often because the fuel injection system is under pressure and a dirty fuel filter will drop the pressure to the injectors which will cause running issues.
Not beating you up here but if you get the idle around 950 rpm the bike will be better off and you will have better throttle response.
I hear ya, I just like it a bit more relaxed. And the response has been great with the Throttle Progressivity dialed to a 1:1. Other wise (stock) it wouldn't open past 3% until it hit 2,000rpms...and I'm not about to launch the thing at 2k just to coax it of the line quickly - Christ it ain't a Kawasaki FFS :grin:

By the way HD FBW throttle body does not have traction control.
hehe Yeah ... I've just taken to sarcastically calling it that because I can't for the life of me figure out why it's like that. Hell, I couldn't even get the thing to spin the tire in the rain the way it was originally set ... However that is no longer a problem.

Not - mind you - that I make a habit of doing burnouts with a $400 tire...it's just nice to know it's an option if I'm ever inclined..

I don't want to be protected from myself by a spastic nanny computer, that's my job and I've been doing it just for over 50 years just fine.
 
  • Like
Reactions: ChromeSpark

·
Registered
Joined
·
822 Posts
Discussion Starter #15 (Edited)
. Scampering back on topic... The first thing I noticed about the filter housing when it came into view was that one of the retaining clip slots was cracked open (actually off). So I may be inheriting the sins of the past.
 

Attachments

·
Registered
Joined
·
822 Posts
Discussion Starter #16
Well the cracked filter housing - which took a week to get from the painfully slow local stealer - did indeed prove to be the culprit. Apparently the filter had clogged just enough to increase the pressure to a point where the damn thing had blown open leaving me fuel pressureless to the injectors and stranded - thankfully - in my own driveway (Good girl Trixie).

It did take a few tries to figure out how she liked the various bits inserted ... And I do understand how the last poor bastard to fiddle with her dainties managed to screw this up. But being a huge fan of anthropomorphism I gotta say it's always best to be gentile with a lady - even if she's a big'n - because she will always win if one gets cocky and pushes things to far, or to hard.

If mama's happy, everybody is happy ... This rule applies to motorcycles too.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
6,640 Posts
Glad you got it fixed! There has been issues of warped fuel filter canisters but that was on the 08 and earlier models that had the recall, I never seen a canister that was broken like that it must be from a previous installation.

The idle rpms being high can be from shutting the bike off with the engine idling high. The ECM remembers the TPS location when the bike was shut off and if the bike was at a higher RPM when it is shut off then the bike will idle at that RPM from then on.
The fix for this problem is to cycle the ignition on/off 5 times, doing this will reset the ECM idle setting back to the correct idle speed.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
822 Posts
Discussion Starter #18
After having a first hand opportunity at playing Ship-in-a-bottle with an EFI fuel system I can easily see why it got forced in there by the last guy. It took me about half an hour of playing poke-N-hope with her to see how she liked it to get it in there. But the next time will be much faster as I think we got a rhythm now.

I'm actually just really glad she decided to take a shit right in my driveway, instead of while I was (briskly...) dicing through traffic which could have easily left both of us in a pile of moosh...

The idle thing hasn't been an issue for a year or so since I got the SEPST to tweak the ECM with. Now morning cold it starts and goes to 1,400RPMs for about the first 30 seconds, and then rapidly drops to 1,000. Then once it starts to get warm - depending on the weather - it will drop into the 850-900 range. And then hot (180+) it will drop to 800.

I just miss the old school Harley slow idle - Guess that's why I bought a Shovelhead project bike (Alice). 1,000RPM idle just feels to buzzy/frenetic/Japanese... to me. I always found myself sitting at a stop light - spooked about engine temperature - thinking 'Jesus relax bitch' with it up that high.

Good/bad/fair ... 30 year old habits are hard to break... :wink:
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
639 Posts
Had a similar issue on my 13. Dealer said it had something to do with a base plate that the fuel pump attaches to getting warped. Said the summer fuel mix is screwing up bikes around here. Buddy of mine had the same thing happen to his. Everything was fixed under warranty, but he said Harley doesn't know what it is in the fuel mix that's causing the issue.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2 Posts
After having a first hand opportunity at playing Ship-in-a-bottle with an EFI fuel system I can easily see why it got forced in there by the last guy. It took me about half an hour of playing poke-N-hope with her to see how she liked it to get it in there. But the next time will be much faster as I think we got a rhythm now.

I'm actually just really glad she decided to take a shit right in my driveway, instead of while I was (briskly...) dicing through traffic which could have easily left both of us in a pile of moosh...

The idle thing hasn't been an issue for a year or so since I got the SEPST to tweak the ECM with. Now morning cold it starts and goes to 1,400RPMs for about the first 30 seconds, and then rapidly drops to 1,000. Then once it starts to get warm - depending on the weather - it will drop into the 850-900 range. And then hot (180+) it will drop to 800.

I just miss the old school Harley slow idle - Guess that's why I bought a Shovelhead project bike (Alice). 1,000RPM idle just feels to buzzy/frenetic/Japanese... to me. I always found myself sitting at a stop light - spooked about engine temperature - thinking 'Jesus relax bitch' with it up that high.

Good/bad/fair ... 30 year old habits are hard to break... :wink:

I can backup Joker's claims. Recently acquired a 2010 FLTRX which had a SESTP sitting in one of its bags. Ordered the cables and dropped the ridiculous cold idle from 1350 to high 1100's then gradually dropping to 800. Oil pressure and volts seem happy, with a cooler engine. Only thing I can think why the idle is set so high from the factory is a Govt mandate to get that bike to temp as fast as possible for smog purposes. They don't care if the bike runs hot or grenades sooner with a screaming cold engine or high idle. Remember wear for the most part occurs on cold starts...
 
1 - 20 of 21 Posts
Top