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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
If I already have SEAC, SE slip-on (SuperTrapp), plus the canned HD "Stage 1 map", then MUST I also add a tuner (SERT, PCV, etc.) when I upgrade 2-1 headpipe(s) to something like V&H or Fulemoto?

1) No, not really?

2) Good idea?

3) Absolutely! No way around it.

I would expect it to be a "Good Idea" but am most interested in the "No, not really" versus "Absolutely" responses and the related reasons.

Thanks,
Steve

ETA - I should probably explain WHY I'm asking:

I (like most others who just bought a new scoot) am crimped for $ and honestly DO plan to add SERT (or PCV, whatever) later. Right now though, I really do want to eliminate that 2010 stove... er... I mean the CAT converter. That's the cause for urgency and some sort of temporary half-way (quick) fix.
 

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I don't have the true technical answer, but I have a similar set up. I am running the SE nightstick, with no download, or tuner, and mine runs fine for now. I solved a lot of the heat problem with mine by removing the lowers, and adding the mid-frame heat deflectors. That helped a lot until I can get the aftermarket vents installed in my lowers. I live in Western Washington, so the weather kinda heat isn't as bad as other areas. This fall I am going to replace the the SE with the V and H 2-1 pro pipe and I will do the tuner and download then.
 

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You're right in the grey area on tbis issue. Ride it as you have it set up now for a month or so, then consider a dynotune by an indy. You will certainly see a difference in the performance by the seat of the pants evaluation. Avoid a dealer dynotune. For some reason they just don't get as much outa the bike and they typically charge ya by the hour. Indys typically charge a set fee for the dynotune.
 

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I hear ya on being short of cash, but if you drop $50 on a non contact thermometer, you can take cylinder head temperature readings yourself and decide just how hot you want to run your "oven".

My story, I went ahead and bought the Harley oil temp gauge, and it has worked flawlessly for 23k miles. I live in Wisconsin, and run Mobile One v-twin, and Hogg Chopps lowers. Just did a 900 miles three day weekend this past FRI-SAT-SUN, and actually crossed over into the UP of michigan one evening.

I saw oil temps consistently between 230 and 255 degrees, and we were running hard, (third gear, from 2-4k, running sweepers for hours on end each day). Outside air temps were never over 90 degrees, and it got down to 60 degrees at night.

I'm still debating adding an oil cooler based on this last weekend.
 

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Discussion Starter #5 (Edited)
I got a set of the Kury mid-frame heat deflectors and also arranged for an oil cooler and oil temp gauge for later this week. I do have some $ (not enough for the new headpipes, tuner, and dyno work yet) but smaller $ spent now are well-spent and will help reduce risk afterward too.

Y'all are offering some really good ideas - thanks. Sure would like to go ahead and ditch that CAT now though.

ETA: The wait really comes down to the $700-$800 for the tuner and dyno.
 

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I agree with EasternSP................Ride it for a while after your headpipe install .....then if you feel like it needs to be tuned.....research and find a good tuner...finding a good tuner will save you money and time....:)
 

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Discussion Starter #7 (Edited)
I agree with EasternSP................Ride it for a while after your headpipe install .....then if you feel like it needs to be tuned.....research and find a good tuner...finding a good tuner will save you money and time....:)
Yep. He sure got my attention and now you too. It's looking "do-able" and I sure want it to be that way.

I've got more confidence now that I can rely upon my ancient "read the plugs" memories to avoid gross problems during the first ride or two and then probably just go for it for a month or so. Thanks for offering your opinions y'all.
 

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4getNo1, Let me add this,... I put Vance and Hines True Duels on my 2005 FLHTSE2. Also installed Sampson 33" Fishtail Drag Mufflers. ALL HOLLOW! Bought a SERT, and had a guy tune it in Dayton, Ohio. I live in Fairfield, bout 45 minutes South.When I rode it up there man,... was it LOUD, BADASS, and all that,I could notice at 45 mph man that thing KICKED IN! Tuner showed me how lean I was running when he put it on the Dyno. It really wasnt all that bad. He mostly adjusted the air fuel ratio. That bike had the typical Fishtail deceleration clackle. The Tuner took all that clackle out.He left a little in there, cause it just sounded to GOOD, and I told him to.He had the air fuel mix staight across the chart. A GOOD TUNER can do WONDERS. So the, No not really? My answer to that would be,"Why was I even thinkn like that!" -Good Idea? "Its a NO BRAINER"- Absolutely! No way around it? I agree w/the rest of the boys, "You'll be fine for now, but it will get done"
 

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Okay...here's my experience so far....I bought my 09 cvo road glide used last year. The previous owner installed 4" screaming eagle mufflers on it and it had the se air cleaner on it. It ran fine and he never re tuned it. I had a harley dealership recently install a Fuel Moto stainless steel non cat head pipe, Vance & Hines Hi out-put mufflers, and a set of Wood TW-7H cams. After the install the dealership performed a dyno tune with a SERT. The result of the dyno tune was very generic at best. The hp. and torgue numbers or results are not there or what I expected they should be. The bike stumbles below 2300 rpm, very flat, and just does not have a crisp throttle response. So........I have a dyno/tune appointment set up in the middle of August with a tuner/bike shop that is NOT a harley dealership and he has experience with Woods cams. An expreienced tuner is VERY important, I wish I would have went to a experience tuner the 1st time. EasternSP and Neano62 are spot on with their advice.
 

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From my understanding if you have had already had the Reflash by HD, you will need to do another reflash at least if you change the headpipe, because by having the reflash done already, you have programmed your bikes computer to run with the current set up, and wont adjust with the new headpipes.
However if you get a Power Commander or tuner, I believe these are what make the adjustments to the AFR. So... If you go to new headpipe, you either have to do another HD reflash, or get a Power Commander etc to do the job.
Thats why i have chosen to not do a reflash until I get a Power Commander and full exhaust. By not doing a reflash at this point, my bike will adjust to he proper AFR. It will continue to run lean and hot still though because thats the way the computer wants the bike to run from stock. though the tuners are expensive, you have more control over the AFR.
 

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Same the money on the Dyno and install a ThunderMax ECU, they work great and it is always retuning itself. Best money i ever spend.
 

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Hey Everyone. New to this forum. Had a 2000 Road King and learned a bunch from the Road King Riders forum. Purchased a 2010 Black Denim Road Glide in March and absolutely love it!
The HD download does not add more fuel to your bike. It adjusts the ignition timing and also allows you to rev higher. Adding more fuel will cool your bike down. Have you looked at the XIED's from Nightrider? They have variable resistors that plug in between the O2 sensors and your ECM. It basically fools the ECM so it will add more fuel to your bike. I put them on my 2010 RG two months ago. My fuel milage dropped to 47 highway but the bike runs great and the spark plugs look much better. Check out Nightrider.com. I eventually will get a new headpipe without the catalytic convertor but I'm going to wait until my warrenty has expired. Right now I'm running the Nightstick exhaust with 4 added discs. I haven't touched the airbox yet.
 

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Discussion Starter #13 (Edited)
Thanks for sharing insight y'all and here's the conclusion I'm coming to.

Dumping the CAT will eliminate the extra heat associated with CAT (my only goal at this time) PLUS it will increase overall air-flow. Even if I just carve the CAT out of my stock pipes, I will still have (at best) just as lean as condition as what I started with.

Normally, allowing more air-flow is a good deal but with the stock ECM, doing that may be a really BAD deal. This newfound extra air-flow is indeed my primary concern since it could potentially overcome the stock ECM's capability to maintain an already somewhat lean condition.

Therefore, I'm going to tolerate the stupid CAT until next spring in the hope that winter is indeed going to get here this year (Gore is wrong). By then, I'll have enough $ to get a good set of headpipes and a tuner :D.

Besides, maybe that CAT heat becomes useful if Bike Week is as cold this year as it was last year but then, that's another topic so...

Yep - I'm wussing out :eek: (for now).
 

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Hey Everyone. New to this forum. Had a 2000 Road King and learned a bunch from the Road King Riders forum. Purchased a 2010 Black Denim Road Glide in March and absolutely love it!
The HD download does not add more fuel to your bike. It adjusts the ignition timing and also allows you to rev higher. Adding more fuel will cool your bike down. Have you looked at the XIED's from Nightrider? They have variable resistors that plug in between the O2 sensors and your ECM. It basically fools the ECM so it will add more fuel to your bike. I put them on my 2010 RG two months ago. My fuel milage dropped to 47 highway but the bike runs great and the spark plugs look much better. Check out Nightrider.com. I eventually will get a new headpipe without the catalytic convertor but I'm going to wait until my warrenty has expired. Right now I'm running the Nightstick exhaust with 4 added discs. I haven't touched the airbox yet.
How long have you been running the Nightstick now? I was looking at it for my 2010 RG, but hear a lot about discoloration. Spoke to Supertrapp, and they suggested adding discs. Are you happy with it? Did you change your air cleaner too?
 

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Nightstick

I have a small amount of yellowing at the inlet of the Nightstick but that happened before I put the Xied's on the bike. I added 4 discs when I installed the Xied's and there has been no more yellowing of the pipes. I currently have 7700 miles on the pipe. I have the variable Xied's set at 14 to 1. I still have the stock air cleaner. I plan on removing the Cat over the winter and will set the variable Xied's to 13.8 to 1. I will probably leave the airbox alone because I don't want to deal with the oil blow by and having to get it tuned. We will see how it runs.
 

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The dealer download will keep you out of trouble. It ONLY fattens everything up across the board, but should not be confused with a tune.

You can run whatever setup you want with it, and shouldn't cause any mechanical issues.

Don't confuse yourself, the "stock" ECM is one of the best on the market. A tuner does NOT replace your stock ECM, it only changes the settings within your stock ECM, making it run better.

A fuel management system, i.e. V&H FuelPak, piggybacks on your stock ECM, and fattens it up. I run this system on my 09 Softie, but ordered a TTS Mastertune for my 11 RGU.

IMHO, adding pipes and not doing the AC is an exercise in futility. You cannot get rid of more air than you are bringing in. You don't really gain anything but noise....

Using a SE intake, you have no blow by issues, you can still run a K&N filter, and the heads vent into the intake the same as stock does.
 

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Paying for computer upload

Let me let yo in on a little secret...with both my 2007 Street Glide and my 2010 Road Glide Custome I did the Screaming Eagle Air Fileter upgrade and added the nightstick on this one and true duals to the other and the sensors and computer adjusted without the upgrade and both bikes run fantastic. Now a friend who owes a shop locally and has a dyno has found playing...he's put an air filter on first...the computer adjusted...then put vance hines duals on and it adjusted again and ran perfect on the dyno....but that wouldn't sell upgrade fuel adjustments if ou told everyone. Most cases unless radical pipes the computers and sensors will let it adjust and setup just fine.
 

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I agree it will adjust and still be lean and hot like the factory set up and will not hurt the engine. If you want a little more throttle responce and cooling after doing a stage 1 then add a fuel manager or XiEDs to richen it up a bit..this should be called a stage 2 and the only downside should be just a small drop in mpgs.
 

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The stock ECM has narrow band O2 sensors which can only make small adjustments in the fuel and air mixtures. With Thundermax ECM you have to change to wide band O2 sensors and you a greater adjustment in the air fuel mixtures. Also after installing the Thundermax unit you can save the auto adjustment the ECM made to a new fuel map than it will continue to make adjustment from the new fuel map.
 

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Discussion Starter #20
The stock ECM has narrow band O2 sensors which can only make small adjustments in the fuel and air mixtures. With Thundermax ECM you have to change to wide band O2 sensors and you a greater adjustment in the air fuel mixtures. Also after installing the Thundermax unit you can save the auto adjustment the ECM made to a new fuel map than it will continue to make adjustment from the new fuel map.
That's something else I don't know about yet. What's are the actual differences between the older (like my old '07) versus the new 2010 sensors?
 
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