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Discussion Starter #1
So, I just had my bike re-tuned on the dyno and really just wanted it to be smooth.
it has plenty of power etc but down in the normal world 22-2500 rpms it still surges, twitchy and is just ready to be at wide open it feels like.
this is the 103 10:5/1 pistons, (was told it was 10:6-10:7/1, cnc ported heads, valves, springs, injector, 58mm throttle body, 259e cams. on the tune we spent 4hrs smoothing it out best as possible.
Any body else deal with this? I love the power but its getting to the point I don't feel it is practical in the smooth riding sense. Should I change pistons to lower compression or change out cams? Any thoughts would be great. thanks.

ps, cranking compression was 120 front and rear
 

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What are your numbers. I have the same set up with similar experience at lower RPM. My HP is 99 and TQ is 105. I don't like that twitchyness nor do I like the super low rev limiter (5200 RPM)

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So, I just had my bike re-tuned on the dyno and really just wanted it to be smooth.
it has plenty of power etc but down in the normal world 22-2500 rpms it still surges, twitchy and is just ready to be at wide open it feels like.
this is the 103 10:5/1 pistons, (was told it was 10:6-10:7/1, cnc ported heads, valves, springs, injector, 58mm throttle body, 259e cams. on the tune we spent 4hrs smoothing it out best as possible.
Any body else deal with this? I love the power but its getting to the point I don't feel it is practical in the smooth riding sense. Should I change pistons to lower compression or change out cams? Any thoughts would be great. thanks.

ps, cranking compression was 120 front and rear
While I will say that I am less than thrilled with the tq below 3k rpm's, my 120ST with 259e cams is very ridable as low as 2k rpm's if I so choose. I don't ride there as I feel that's borderline lugging the engine but I can. The engine is real happy and smooth as silk anything 2,800 and up so that's where I cruise at. Most of the time I'm above 3k and she is real happy. I say you should be smooth in that range but I don't know why you would want to ride there for very long anyway but that's JMHO.
 

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Discussion Starter #4
What are your numbers. I have the same set up with similar experience at lower RPM. My HP is 99 and TQ is 105. I don't like that twitchyness nor do I like the super low rev limiter (5200 RPM)

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101 hp 111 tq. that was at 85% humidity and dyno was sae 1.05
 

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Discussion Starter #5
While I will say that I am less than thrilled with the tq below 3k rpm's, my 120ST with 259e cams is very ridable as low as 2k rpm's if I so choose. I don't ride there as I feel that's borderline lugging the engine but I can. The engine is real happy and smooth as silk anything 2,800 and up so that's where I cruise at. Most of the time I'm above 3k and she is real happy. I say you should be smooth in that range but I don't know why you would want to ride there for very long anyway but that's JMHO.

its not that I ride there, slow speeds, stop and go traffic or getting around parking lots etc. up top its nice.
engine is also real ticky and rattles. compared to my twin cam 88. not trying to compare the two though.

been thinking of pulling cam and maybe even just going with 110 pistons or a 107 lower comp and diff cam and keep the heads. idk, not super happy with it as of right now.
 

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its not that I ride there, slow speeds, stop and go traffic or getting around parking lots etc. up top its nice.
engine is also real ticky and rattles. compared to my twin cam 88. not trying to compare the two though.

been thinking of pulling cam and maybe even just going with 110 pistons or a 107 lower comp and diff cam and keep the heads. idk, not super happy with it as of right now.
Understood.

Not sure why your tuner couldn't smooth that out for you though. Should be possible in my book with out changing parts.
 

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Discussion Starter #9
Understood.

Not sure why your tuner couldn't smooth that out for you though. Should be possible in my book with out changing parts.
spent 4hrs. worlds better than when I brought it in. Different dealer did the kit and with a se pro tuner uploaded a precan stage 4 map. there were spots of 0 fuel. terrible

said the cam is tricky he said
 

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said the cam is tricky he said

I think he is blowing smoke because he couldn't fix it all the way. My dealership does that kit ALL the time and I've never heard of the 259e being tricky to tune. Now I have heard other complaints like lack of power in the low end but never heard that it's a tricky cam to tune especially with your combination of ingredients. Interesting...



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i like a cam in mid-mid range-intake closing around 38 to 42 at the most.a friend has the stage 4 103-105 hp 110 tq-his bike sounds pretty nasty on idle and take off. that bike now has 60,000 miles since the build,he never complains and is always smiling.i have a 110 with 255 cam which to me is to low.i like to shift,so a higher mid cam works.some of the guys i ride with are stuck on the 255.doing a cam change is cheap and easy.good luck and ride it like u stole it
 

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I have the same thing in my stage 4. The 259 cams. Need to keep the rpm's up. If I cruise below 2700 it will backfire through the air intake. I usually run a gear lower.
 

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Discussion Starter #13
I have the same thing in my stage 4. The 259 cams. Need to keep the rpm's up. If I cruise below 2700 it will backfire through the air intake. I usually run a gear lower.

that's how it was before the full tune. I'm guessing you have the same canned tune uploaded. If so then you need to run it in for a tune. the original HD dealer gave a 110hp 110tq reading on the build once done. then on the retune they uploaded what was done and found that. he tweaked and made it safe to run then base lined it after the initial tweak and it was just under 100hp. now there dyno is off a ways, said closest to 0 real read accurately, theres was 1.05 and sticky as hell outside!!! I wasn't looking for numbers rather than smooth it out.
I have a s&s top end in my dyna that I did about 8 months ago on a 40k mile engine and its so smooth in every way. Now I know the cam isn't the same by any means just expected power and something smooth. ill go with a SS or woods cam after a bit and see how that goes. Sucks to pay for tunes each time but gotta pay to play.
 

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The SE 259 cams are not a good cam for a 103, you usually need to be at or above 3000 rpm for the cam to perform.
Also I think that the 58mm throttle body is too big for the 103 even when the 103 has a stage 4 build. Because the 58mm TB has more air flow it doesn't work as well at low RPM as it does in the higher rpm ranges.
You could try going back to the 50mm throttle body, I did that with my 103 stage 4 build and it gave the bike better low end response.
 
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'Had the SE Stage III Kit (259s, 10.5/1, stock heads/tb, SEPST, V&H PowerDuals) on the '09 110 for 10k mi. Or so...

Bike was smooth everywhere, no ill behavior at all...
Pulled well at 6k or better...

Maybe the 58mm is too big at 103in?? Maybe the heads are not right for the combination?? Along with the 58mm, the mufflers might be too big, might see about trying some with smaller baffles??

As far as "259s being tricky to Tune" my setup initially had a small flat spot around 26-2700, back on the dyno 1x all is well. So im calling bs on that one...

You stated CCP at 120? Is that correct? Were the acrs disabled?

I'm with RGKEN, you should be able to get it sorted out without going back into the motor, just being a little high on the factory recommended compression for the 259 s is no big deal.

Might need to find another Dyno Guy...
 

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The SE 259 cams are not a good cam for a 103, you usually need to be at or above 3000 rpm for the cam to perform.

Also I think that the 58mm throttle body is too big for the 103 even when the 103 has a stage 4 build. Because the 58mm TB has more air flow it doesn't work as well at low RPM as it does in the higher rpm ranges.

You could try going back to the 50mm throttle body, I did that with my 103 stage 4 build and it gave the bike better low end response.


That is correct Mark, it caused the fuel to puddle as I would call it in the intake because there is not enough velocity to pull it thru into the combustion chamber. Very hard to tune down low and truly can't get it right because of that.


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That is correct Mark, it caused the fuel to puddle as I would call it in the intake because there is not enough velocity to pull it thru into the combustion chamber. Very hard to tune down low and truly can't get it right because of that.


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I've heard of an issue with fuel puddling in the elbow of the heavy breather due to a low pressure created around the breather while riding, possibly due to the aerodynamics, but this is the first I have heard of the cam causing this. 259's have been around for a while and no I am not saying they are the best cam out there but I'm not sure why it all of a sudden seems to be a hard cam to tune. You guys have way more experience with the tuning aspect than I do so I'm not trying to say you're FOS but I would think if it's really an issue with the cam you would have seen it all over these forums by now.


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I've heard of an issue with fuel puddling in the elbow of the heavy breather due to a low pressure created around the breather while riding, possibly due to the aerodynamics, but this is the first I have heard of the cam causing this. 259's have been around for a while and no I am not saying they are the best cam out there but I'm not sure why it all of a sudden seems to be a hard cam to tune. You guys have way more experience with the tuning aspect than I do so I'm not trying to say you're FOS but I would think if it's really an issue with the cam you would have seen it all over these forums by now.


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I'm thinking that Smarty and Mark are referring more to the throttle body being too big (loss of velocity too much fuel) at 103, more so than the 259s being the culprit. Imho, if the OP goes back to the stock throttle body / injectors and mufflers with a smaller baffle, have it properly tuned, (should be much easier to Tune) the 259s will be smooth everywhere. Yes they will come on at around 2700, but will be smooth and driveable from just off idle, to the high 5k range.

The short of it is the 259s and the compression is fine, you just have to get the right components on either end (intake and mufflers) to play well together in a 103 bagger. You have an intake and mufflers that play well at 117 and bigger, not so much at 103, especially not in a bagger....
 

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I'm thinking that Smarty and Mark are referring more to the throttle body being too big (loss of velocity too much fuel) 103 more than the 259s being the culprit. Imo, if the OP goes back to the stock throttle body / injectors and mufflers with a smaller baffle, have it retuned, then the 259s will be smooth everywhere. Yes they will come on at around 2700, but will be smooth and driveable from just off idle.

My bad...

I just re-read everything and I agree with that. Although I do know of one 103 with a 58mm TB that runs just fine but there are always the exception.


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I'm thinking that Smarty and Mark are referring more to the throttle body being too big (loss of velocity too much fuel) at 103, more so than the 259s being the culprit. Imho, if the OP goes back to the stock throttle body / injectors and mufflers with a smaller baffle, have it properly tuned, (should be much easier to Tune) the 259s will be smooth everywhere. Yes they will come on at around 2700, but will be smooth and driveable from just off idle, to the high 5k range.

The short of it is the 259s and the compression is fine, you just have to get the right components on either end (intake and mufflers) to play well together in a 103 bagger. You have an intake and mufflers that play well at 117 and bigger, not so much at 103, especially not in a bagger....
I think you're right. I think by me saying the cam is the issue I was off base! I think with a 117 all the parts would be great. ill look into the cost of locating stock intake manifold parts and injectors and retune vs maybe going up on jug size and see how we look on comparison.
how big can you go on a 103 case? 110? or 117?
 
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