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Discussion Starter #1
I have what I’m sure it a pretty dumb question to the audiophiles, but I’m not as ashamed of my ignorance as perhaps I should be, so I’m going to post it on the internet for all the world to see.

I have a Harley GTS head unit; flowing to a DSR1 DSP; to a Diamond Audio Micro84u 4 channel 660 watt amp currently powering:
  • two Hertz MPK 165.3 6.5”s in my upper fairing
  • two Hertz SV 165.1 6.5”s in my lower fairing
  • two Hybrid Audio 6x9s and two Hertz ST25 Horns in my saddlebag lids
The four 6.5“s are running on the front output from the amp, the saddlebag lids are running on the rear output. The DSR1 was configured for me by the folks at American Hardbags when I bought everything. The last thing I’ll note is that when adjusting the “SENS” of the amp independently for the front and rear speakers I can’t even turn the amp up half way before the speakers start to distort. What I think that means is that the amp is pushing more power than the speakers can handle already.

All of that said, I have the bike apart for paint (again) and it occurred to me that since I have an “extra” BikeTronics 2250 amp that I was using when I just had two 6.5”s in the upper fairing, maybe it would be good to put it to use for the four 6.5”s and then use the Diamond 84u to power the 6x9s and horns. While the guys at American Hardbag said that the amp could power all 8 of the speaker (counting the horns), and it has worked fine for the month or so I ran it, I have been told by others that I should have a separate amp for the saddlebag lid speakers. I just don’t know why if the Diamond 660 is already pushing more power than any of the speakers can handle.

So, my questions are:
1) Should I use the BT2250 to drive the front for speakers, and the Diamond 84u to power the lids?
2) If I should, please explain why and what the value would be.

My assumption is that the consensus will be that I should separate the speakers to different amps and the rational will be that the system won’t be louder or clearer, but will be a more efficient use of power, but again, I don’t know much about the math or science behind power distribution or transition to sound in sound systems, so please make me less stupid.

Oh, and just to complicate things further, I’m also considering pulling it all out (again) and putting two 8”s and two horns in the fairing (Dirty Bird Loud Pods) and two 8”s and two horns in my saddlebag lids. Will that be noticeably louder than the current setup? And, why should or shouldn’t I spend the $2,500 or so to make this change purely from a sound perspective (I know I’d lose my glove boxes and some don’t care for the looks of the Loud Pods or 8” lids).

Thanks in advance for the education and opinions.
 

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Not an audiophile guy, but where are cutoff freq set at? With the 6.5" you could be getting low freq coming in that they can't handle and causing to break up. Just a thought, I don't have specs on power handling capabilities of those speakers, but running parallel for the fronts and lowers I can't imagine your getting more than 75-100 watts per to speakers. Not familiar with the 8's and best way to set them up. Would imagine you can't run those and the lowers on same channel. Technically, you probably could if both are 4 ohm speakers, just don't think you could get the most out of the 8's set up that way. I am sure others will chime in with better advice. Good luck.
 

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Bluejob, you really need to lay out the whole plan before we move on. 8s or no? All the amps under the fairing or no? Are you keeping the Hertz? They are power hungry speakers for sure.
As for the amp distorting at not even half, I would suspect the tune. If you can bump up the lower end, make it not play as low, you will be able to turn the amp up more. Canned maps for audio are just like canned maps for engines, they work but they can be tweaked to get more and in turn run/sound better
 

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Not an amp to speaker ratio thing....that really does not exist.

It is all about impedance of the speakers, how they are connected to the amp (parallel or series) and the resulting impedance and if that is within a supported range for the amp. It’s a math thing.

Now if you are trying to turn the volume up to a point where the amp can not supply the power on the peaks (especially bass) then you likely need a bigger amp or to separate the front from the rear.

Are you running the stock head unit ?

So we need more info on how everything is wired up, impedance of the speakers, capabilities of the amp and what impedance range it is stable.
 

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Man O man, going for it!!!! Always good to check out that other forum of Sound Guru's....As you know, they know there shit and have tried every newest speakers/ Amp combination!!!! Good luck and congrats! Again!
 

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Discussion Starter #6
Bluejob, you really need to lay out the whole plan before we move on. 8s or no? All the amps under the fairing or no? Are you keeping the Hertz? They are power hungry speakers for sure.
As for the amp distorting at not even half, I would suspect the tune. If you can bump up the lower end, make it not play as low, you will be able to turn the amp up more. Canned maps for audio are just like canned maps for engines, they work but they can be tweaked to get more and in turn run/sound better
As I mentioned, I’m considering pulling it all out and putting in two 8”s in the fairing with two horns; and two 8”s in the lids with two more horns. The core question is, if I had four 8’s and four horns with appropriately sized amp(s) would that produce more sound than four 6.5s, two 6x9s and two horns that are quite loud now?

I’d surely keep the new GTS head unit and the DSR1 and if the Diamond Micro84u is sufficient to power two 8”s and two horns then perhaps I’d just double up and get another one, but if the 84u wouldn’t be enough, then perhaps I’d go with a single 800 watt 4 channel amp configuration if that were better. Overall though, the core question is are four 8”s and four horns better than four 6.5”s two 6x9s and two horns? If they would be better, then perhaps I’ll consider that route, and would certainly be interested in your opinion of how they should be configured to do it right.

I hear you on the configuration aspect, but that’s why I mentioned that the folks at American Hardbags configured the DSR1 for the specific components I bought. I’m sure that there is absolutely fine tuning that someone that knows more than I could do to maximize the output from the DSR1. I just don’t think I could do any better and would only risk messing it up.

The frequency settings is an interesting question though. When I got everything installed I stopped in at an automotive audio shop and enlisted their assistance in setting the SENS and Frequency settings, so I assume that they are within a range of acceptable. That said, my understanding with motorcycle audio is that low frequency (bass) is lost at speed so you adjust the frequency settings to focus more on a clear sound with the highs, while trying to find some level of a balance so it doesn’t sound too high.

If I’m understanding you correctly, you are suggesting that perhaps the frequency might be set to allow too much low frequency through, thus the 6.5”s would begin to distort at volume. Assuming that is correct, unless the amp is underpowered for the speakers there will always be a line where the amp pushes more power than the speakers can handle. If, however, the speakers are capable of more than the amp is pushing, the amp would overwork and start cutting out at too high a volume. So the “balance” I’m looking for is:
  • Amp with sufficient power to push to the speakers, but not so much it blows them.
  • Frequency settings that make the music sound natural but recognizing that too low a setting will cause the 6.5”s to distort at lower volumes, while too high a frequency setting will cause the music to sound like crap.
  • SENS settings that allow the music to be as loud and clear as possible at about 3/4 head unit volume.
Is that correct?
 

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Discussion Starter #7
It may help to clarify, that IF I go with the four 8”s and four horns, that will be all there is. I’ll remove the lower fairing and put on the smaller crash bar and the new fairing spoiler. I’d definitely re-use the DSR1, but would be open to whatever amp configuration would be needed to power the speakers.

With my current six speaker, two horn setup...

Replaced the stock 2018 GT head unit with Harley GTS, Soundz module and WHIM

Micro84u amp specs are:
  • 2 or 4 Channel - set to 4
  • 90 W x 4 @ 4Ω
  • 165 W x 4 @ 2Ω
  • 275 W x 2 @ 4Ω Bridged
The Hertz MPK 165 specs are:
  • 110 Watts RMS
  • 220 Watts Peak Power
  • Sensitivity: 92 dB/SPL
The Hertz SV165 specs are:
  • 400 Watts Peak Power
  • Sensitivity 97 dB/SPL
The Hertz ST25 specs are:
  • Handles up to 50 watts RMS (100 watts peak)
  • Impedance: 4 ohms
  • Sensitivity: 107 dB
The Hybrid Audio 6x9 specs are:
  • 75 Watts RMS
  • 150 Watts Peak
  • Impedance: 2 ohms
The BT2250 amp I have not in use is:
  • 2 channel
  • 500 watt RMS
Since I have the MPK 165s and SV165s both connected to the front outputs (FL and FR) of my Micro84u, I assume that means they are running in parallel, and the two 6x9s and ST25 horns are also all connected in parallel to the rear output (LR and RR). The channel switch is set to 4 channel.

When adjusting the SENS I disconnect the rear speaker output to adjust just the fronts, then disconnect the fronts to adjust just the rears. The Frequency setting for front and rear are different but no set for a lot of bass. The SENS settings on the amp are about 1/4 for the fronts and just under 1/2 for the rears if I recall correctly.
 

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You will probably get alot of good info from the other forum
 

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Like ridez stated You will definitely get a lot of good info on The Other Forum in The Audio Section.
There are many very knowledgeable guys that are willing to help out just like here.
When I upgraded My Audio System they were a wealth of knowledge and assisted me immensely.
Mike U.


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Your combined impedance in the fronts assuming they are wired in parallel is 1.7 ohms

Your rears if wired in parallel have an impedance of 1.3 ohms.

Your amp will not be stable at power as you will be drawing more current than it can support. You may be starting to see evidence of that. This can destroy the amp.

If you were to wire them in series then impedance won’t be an issue as the front impedance becomes 7 ohms and the rear 6 ohms. But then your volume will be lower.

I suggest you run a separate amp for the rear speakers. Then you can run the fronts 1 speaker per channel.

The bt2250 states that it is 2 ohm stable...but specifies 2 - 2 ohm speakers (one per channel) or 4 - 4ohm speakers (2 in parallel per channel). Your tweeters are 2 ohm and the 6x9’s are 4 ohm.

You really should have all the speakers the same impedance as it simplifies many things. If your speakers were all 4 ohm then things in parallel would work out to 2 ohms. even then I’d still run a separate amp for front and rear.
 

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I have not heard 8s inn the fairing, and I hate to assume, but 8s would be louder then the 6.5 in the fairing. If powered correctly and tuned.

You are correct; more bass then the speakers can handle it will distort.

Here is just my opinion on 8s in the fairings. Not taking anything away from them at all, but have you heard some serious sounding bikes with 6.5s in the fairing?? They don't need 8s there for sure. Listen to this

Tuning is so important in these types of builds it cant be stated enough. You have some nice parts that should mesh well. As for the amp, not sure if its got enough for what your looking for. Those speakers love lots of power.

If I was in your shoes I would get on the other forum and see if one of the gurus over there lives near you. If not there are a couple of them that have sent tunes to people or at least looked at the existing tune and recommended changes.
See were you are after that. If you still want louder then another amp is a easy deal
 

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Discussion Starter #12
Thanks guys! I’ll post on the other forum to see if any experts are near me or what recommendations they have for maximizing my setup. Adding another amp is not a problem if it will boost the sound, and if I need to swap out a part or two to get a killer setup then I’m in.
 

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Hey Blue job, I've been following your thread on the other forum. Have you decided what to do? In the end you got some good options and info.
 

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Discussion Starter #14
Hey Blue job, I've been following your thread on the other forum. Have you decided what to do? In the end you got some good options and info.
The simplest suggestion (and probably smartest) I’ve received is to simply use the BT2250 I already have, split the SVs off to run on that 2 channel, then use the Micro84u I have to run the MPKs and the 6x9s. Costs me nothing more, maxes out the SVs, Unity69s and Horns and just leaves a little on the table for the MPKs.

Henry from Da Funk Shop suggested that I just add another Diamond Audio Micro amp in the fairing and split each set of speakers off to individual channels then use the DSR1 to tune them. He said that I have decent component speakers that should produce good clear sound, but of course there is always “more” I could go after. He suggested starting with the second amp, then if I want “more” swap the MPKs for PRV Neos and if I really wanted to go bigger I could pull the 6x9s and put in a couple of 8s. I could leave both, of course, but that would require a third amp and would consume saddlebag space. Step one of adding another Micro amp would cost less than $400 and having tested each set of speakers individually this week on the Micro would be more sound than most could ever use.

In talking to a local shop here in town today, they agreed with Henry that simply adding another Micro would be a really impressive system, but said that the Hertz MPKs and SVs could both handle even more power than the Diamond Micro 660/600s are pushing, so if I wanted to reset a little I could go with two SD800 amps. I mentioned the Lex RG amp mount and they said I could get two SD800s in the fairing if I use that rack and I wouldn’t have to loose saddlebag space putting one in there.

I definitely have received lots of suggestions and have learned a lot.

I’m not completely certain what I’m going to do yet, but I just keep thinking to myself that I don’t want to regret not having more power, so why buy another Micro 600/660 Watt when for the same price I can get an SD800, and if I do that, why not go ahead and get the other one too. At this moment, I think that what I’m going to do is:

  • Pull the Diamond Audio Micro84u out and put it on the shelf, sell it, or put it in a buddies bike
  • Put in the Lex RG amp rack
  • Put in two SD800 amps; one SD800.4 - 4 and one SD800.4 - 2
  • Add the Diamond Audio MO75T horns to my upper fairing grills
  • Keep the MPKs in the upper fairing with the MO75Ts
  • Keep the SVs in the lowers bridged to put 200 W to each of them
  • Put the two Unity69s I have in the lids now with a second set of Unity69s I have on the shelf in a new set of Advan Black dual 6x9 speaker lids.
  • Maybe cut a nice small hole in the front of each of my newly painted saddlebags and put the ST25 horns there pointing forward, or put them with the Micro84u
Then if I decide later to go nuts, I can potentially use the Micro84u to power a couple of 8” PRVs in the bags, and if I’m not satisfied with the MPKs or SVs I would probably go with PRV Neos.

If I can stop tripping over my ego, I will just put the BT2250 in with the Micro or add another Micro.

You have any thoughts or a vote?
 

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I vote for the SD amps. They are proven performers. You got solid stuff already, just need more juice for them. I haven't been around the bike audio long but I remember a lot of guys were running Hertz speakers but then they all changed to the pro audio stuff that's more efficient. That seemed like the power the Hertz needed was the biggest drawback.

Buddy of mine has a '19 RG special that I coated a month or so ago. He bought the Hertz, diamond 1000 watt amp and the Rockford kit from AHB with a DSP. I didn't ask what he paid but it was a lot. It sounds ok but nothing that makes me think I need to change anything for sure. We talked a lot before he bought it and I gave him suggestions. He is from Miami and I told him to go see family and drop the bike off at Da Funk Shop, but it was his decision and he is happy for now. He has a Trail Hawk and a 69 charger also so he has a lot going on besides audio for the bike.

Lay out your plan, figure out your wiring and hit the go button. Sad but not many people end up doing the audio thing once. Happy then want more, either louder or better SQ. Never ending cycle. I had to put a stop to it, or the wife did. When Mike U sent me a amp I had to explain why the other 2 in the garage were not getting used and I needed another one. The other thing that put a damper on it was I was so dam tired of taking the fairing on and off, Rushmore's area whole lot easier.

One more thing to consider. There seems to be some rummers about the DSR1 DSP. Cant remember what it entails but when I was texting a couple guys from the other forum for my friend they all told no to that DSP. Like I said I cant remember what it was about though. Dont know if there were issues with it or some other issue.

You have a killer bike and Im sure in the end you will have the audio all squared away. Looking forward to the audio "Build Thread" for sure
 

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BJ I have 2 Soundigital 800.4 Amps powering My Audio System and they are very powerful, clean and clear.
I am currently in the process of changing the 8’s in the bags to 10’s so I picked up another SD that one being a 1200.1 to power them.
If you’re not in a rush SD has some new amps coming out which are way smaller than the originals.
In My Opinion You can’t go wrong with the SD line of Amps.
As far as DSP’s I did plenty of research before settling on the Digital Design DSI-2 and glad that I did. I’ve read and heard of people going from the RF DSR1 to the DD DSI-2 but not the other way around.
Best of Luck on Your Decision.
Mike U.


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I’m running 3 Soundigital amps in my bike and love them. I’ve also tried RF, Hertz and Arc and the SD are by far better in my opinion. Like others have said l, tuning is key. Had a big name in the business tell me once that “a good tuner can make bad speakers sound great while a bad tuner can make great speakers sound bad”. If you know you’re not going to be happy with a certain set up in the end then i say go for what you want. Pay once, cry once.


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If you know you’re not going to be happy with a certain set up in the end then i say go for what you want. Pay once, cry once.
That's what I'm saying. I'll be riding the two hours to Miami and dropping the bike off to Henry. I'm sure I could do the install myself, but don't really want to fool with it. In my younger days spent enough on audio for my trucks.
 

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Discussion Starter #19
BJ I have 2 Soundigital 800.4 Amps powering My Audio System and they are very powerful, clean and clear.
I am currently in the process of changing the 8’s in the bags to 10’s so I picked up another SD that one being a 1200.1 to power them.
If you’re not in a rush SD has some new amps coming out which are way smaller than the originals.
In My Opinion You can’t go wrong with the SD line of Amps.
As far as DSP’s I did plenty of research before settling on the Digital Design DSI-2 and glad that I did. I’ve read and heard of people going from the RF DSR1 to the DD DSI-2 but not the other way around.
Best of Luck on Your Decision.
Mike U.


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Thanks Mike U.!

I’m not necessarily in a rush, but the paint will be finished this week or next, and I’d really like to get this thing back together. It’s been apart for painting since Thanksgiving, and down for motor work since the end of September. Its winter, but we still get a lot of 60+ degree days down here and I’ve sacraficed all of the fall and winter riding to get her ready to just ride this spring and summer.

That said I probably would wait on the new EvoX SD line, but they aren’t making a new SD800.4 - 2 yet, and there’s no definitive release date for the SD800.4 - 4 yet. Since I’m going to have at least the SD800.4 - 2 Evo in there I figure that I might as well just get them now and button this one up in the next couple of weeks.

I guess the alternative is that I could just put it back together with the BT2250 or pick up another Micro for now, then wait and see if they release a SD800.4 - 2 in a couple of months and take it back apart then.

And, @Willy_B - I wish I was just paying once on this one, but this will be my 3rd installment for the audio on this bike. The funny thing is that I wasn’t unhappy with the sound with just the one amp. Of course there were times when I would have liked a little louder, but I’m afraid that that will be the case no matter what I do... it is an open motorcycle after all.

But once I learned that I was under powering the speakers and they could do more... “why not optimize and maximize the output of what I have by adding another amp?” And down the rabbit hole I go.

I’m certain that just adding another micro will take it to a new level, but for just a few more $... It would really be something I think.

Decisions, decisions
 

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Thanks Mike U.!

I’m not necessarily in a rush, but the paint will be finished this week or next, and I’d really like to get this thing back together. It’s been apart for painting since Thanksgiving, and down for motor work since the end of September. Its winter, but we still get a lot of 60+ degree days down here and I’ve sacraficed all of the fall and winter riding to get her ready to just ride this spring and summer.

That said I probably would wait on the new EvoX SD line, but they aren’t making a new SD800.4 - 2 yet, and there’s no definitive release date for the SD800.4 - 4 yet. Since I’m going to have at least the SD800.4 - 2 Evo in there I figure that I might as well just get them now and button this one up in the next couple of weeks.

I guess the alternative is that I could just put it back together with the BT2250 or pick up another Micro for now, then wait and see if they release a SD800.4 - 2 in a couple of months and take it back apart then.

And, @Willy_B - I wish I was just paying once on this one, but this will be my 3rd installment for the audio on this bike. The funny thing is that I wasn’t unhappy with the sound with just the one amp. Of course there were times when I would have liked a little louder, but I’m afraid that that will be the case no matter what I do... it is an open motorcycle after all.

But once I learned that I was under powering the speakers and they could do more... “why not optimize and maximize the output of what I have by adding another amp?” And down the rabbit hole I go.

I’m certain that just adding another micro will take it to a new level, but for just a few more $... It would really be something I think.

Decisions, decisions
You're welcome Brother!
From what I read on The Other Forum You got some very excellent advice from Henry and Alex of Da Funk Shop in Miami. Once You have Your Sound System to Your liking I would definitely get in touch with Alex to see if he can remotely tune Your System for You.
I hope everything works out in Your favor.
Mike U.
 
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