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Chief Safety Ossifer , CEO Doofus HD
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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
FWIW - I have only gotten to 2 dealers here in the DC area so far to discuss the M8, the EPA, the tuning and warranty voiding. Here is what I have so far and I know its no surprise to you all:

1. If a owner uses any tuner other than a HD Street tuner - the power train warranty will be voided

2. All new (M8 associated) SE add ons will adhere to EPA standards

3. Any other add ons affecting engine/power/air will void the warranty.

QUOTE FROM ONE LONG TIME DEALER ASSOCIATE: "Jim I'm sorry, in a way this issue has always been there. But we always could take care of you by staying with us. Now, we just can't risk the $36,000.00 fine."

Research continues.

25 OCT 2016 ADDITION: GM sent this to me from MOCO Policy:

U.S. Customers: defects or damage impacting the functionality

of powertrain components in a motorcycle that has been tuned

using a tuner or calibration that was not covered by a California

ARB Executive Order or otherwise approved by EPA’.

In addition to this change, *** a new VIN block message will now

be used on all warranty claims where the motorcycle meets the

above statement. The VIN blocked message will read:

• ‘Non-compliant part affected powertrain’. *** In addition, warranty

claims will be denied for this reason.

NOTE

The definition of powertrain in this instance pertains to the

engine and all of its components, including the ECM (Engine

Control Module), primary drive and transmission including all

its components.
 

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Thanks for the info.
I'm planning to talk with a dealership tomorrow about it, not that I plan on replacing my '15 anytime soon.
I wonder if we'll see underwriters developing a new type of ESP? The way I read all of this is that it only applies to the 24-month factory warranty.
 

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I'd be curious if you were bringing your bike in for service and it had a powervision or tts tune that was in epa spec and you threw your old air filter and pipes back on would they know? obviously that's PITA but an interesting hypothetical question
 

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Chief Safety Ossifer , CEO Doofus HD
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Discussion Starter #5
It looks like the older model Harley's value just went up. :grin:
I'm going to test ride an M8 tomorrow. I know FULLSAC is making progress on the headers and TTS map. But - as a lifetime Fed who has seen so much unrestrained inanity -- I fear for the future of tuning -- performance -- warranty. I fear the 3 shall forever now be in conflict.
 

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There is so much rumor and most of it passed along from employees none of which know than to pass along shit on shingles. Quote a source with your rumor, and a valid source at that.
 

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He is correct, the warranty policy has always existed and the fines for circumventing EPA compliance have always existed. So anytime in the past you've gone in with an aftermarket cam, tuner, exhaust, or other parts you are likely voiding the warranty. Whether or not the dealer gigs you on it depends on your relationship. This is true with cars, trucks, buses, etc.. A classic example is aftermarket tuners or custom exhaust systems on diesel pickups. I never let a dealer touch my bike after I ride it off the lot so not an issue for me or others that do their own work. Now, an aftermarket extended warranty may not matter as it's really just an insurance policy not in fact a warranty, but you'd have to check the individual policy language for specific terms and conditions. I did ask my dealer here in Tulsa just to get their take on it and they say no changes in the way they administer warranty on the 17s from previous years, but since I've never utilized their shop I can't speak to their policies.
 

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Chief Safety Ossifer , CEO Doofus HD
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Discussion Starter #8
Amen. To add to the nonsense up here - 4 dealerships are now owned by "car dealer" parent companies and they have no concept of "traditional support".

He is correct, the warranty policy has always existed and the fines for circumventing EPA compliance have always existed. So anytime in the past you've gone in with an aftermarket cam, tuner, exhaust, or other parts you are likely voiding the warranty. Whether or not the dealer gigs you on it depends on your relationship. This is true with cars, trucks, buses, etc.. A classic example is aftermarket tuners or custom exhaust systems on diesel pickups. I never let a dealer touch my bike after I ride it off the lot so not an issue for me or others that do their own work. Now, an aftermarket extended warranty may not matter as it's really just an insurance policy not in fact a warranty, but you'd have to check the individual policy language for specific terms and conditions. I did ask my dealer here in Tulsa just to get their take on it and they say no changes in the way they administer warranty on the 17s from previous years, but since I've never utilized their shop I can't speak to their policies.
 

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Chief Safety Ossifer , CEO Doofus HD
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Discussion Starter #10
Just got email reply from DEALER 3:
"Any tuner other than HD Street Tuner will void your power train warranty."
Research continues
 

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I had my 1K service for new '17 RGS yesterday and added SE hi airflow and told the service manager I wanted to do my own tune with Fuelpak 3. I asked him if I should flash it back to stock before I took it in. He asked around and consulted the techs. I asked about warranty risk and the message was that "they know how to talk to the MoCo when it comes to warranty issues.

Realistically, the dealerships get paid for warranty work and lose customers by unreasonably denying warranty work.
 

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3. Any other add ons affecting engine/power/air will void the warranty...
#3 is not correct. You can put on aftermarket a/c or exhaust. However, you have two choices to retain your warranty: 1. Don't tune the bike. 2. Tune it as close as you can with the new Pro Street Tuner. If you use any other tuner module, your powertrain warranty is indeed gone.

However, currently nobody knows for sure what "tells" the MoCo has built in to the '17 ECM. There are rumors that if you put on aftermarket a/c or exhaust, thus causing the air flow to be above stock specs, the ECM will record a fault, "may" cause the check engine light to go on, and this "may" not resettable at the dealership. If this is correct, resetting the tune to stock won't work.

I had my 1K service for new '17 RGS yesterday and added SE hi airflow and told the service manager I wanted to do my own tune with Fuelpak 3. I asked him if I should flash it back to stock before I took it in. He asked around and consulted the techs. I asked about warranty risk and the message was that "they know how to talk to the MoCo when it comes to warranty issues.

Realistically, the dealerships get paid for warranty work and lose customers by unreasonably denying warranty work.
Not any more. The EPA and the MoCo have agreed that every dealership, and the MoCo, must maintain a database of every single powertrain warranty claim submitted on a '17 or newer bike. This database would, obviously, include the VIN. Current best guess, (everybody is still guessing on a lot of this), is that the ECM will record the fact that a tuner other than the new Pro Street Tuner has been connected to the bike. If so, any powertrain warranty claim MUST be denied by the dealer, or bad shit will happen.

If you want to do powertrain improvements to your '17, you have four options:

1. All SE components, SE Pro Street Tuner module, and official EPA/CARB compliant download maps.
2. Any other aftermarket powertrain upgrades, but tune only with SE Pro Street Tuner.
3. Wait two years and do what you want. Don't spend the money on an ESP, obviously.
4. Do what you want now, and give up your powertrain warranty if you use any other tuner module.
 

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Chief Safety Ossifer , CEO Doofus HD
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Discussion Starter #13
Dealer 4 told me today, "We have not ret had a buyer brave enough to try catless headers, big AC, non-SE tuner and aftermarket muffs". // I'm betting the next few months will see more info on here as riders experiment. DOOF
 

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I had a Florida dealer install on my 2017 Rgs. That i didn't buy from them. The heavey breather an rinhart 4.5 slip on's an they tuned it with power vision.
An said that it wouldn't void warranty .
I would have went with screaming eagle if i had to ,but they sold pv and recommend it because of auto tune features.
Now i dont want cause any trouble so ill leave there name out.
But they did give receipts for all the work.
So i guess time will tell. Lol
 

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Chief Safety Ossifer , CEO Doofus HD
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Discussion Starter #15
This is good news - and I'm glad for you ! Keep us informed on the performance too please. To be clear, you still have the stock headers on there with the cat ? Thnx, DOOF
I had a Florida dealer install on my 2017 Rgs. That i didn't buy from them. The heavey breather an rinhart 4.5 slip on's an they tuned it with power vision.
An said that it wouldn't void warranty .
I would have went with screaming eagle if i had to ,but they sold pv and recommend it because of auto tune features.
Now i dont want cause any trouble so ill leave there name out.
But they did give receipts for all the work.
So i guess time will tell. Lol
 

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Yes still has stock head pipe an cat.
Rinehart rep said the true dual x header should be out late November early December. So ill add that then.
It performs really well now though.
I all most had it dynoed. I was talking to the tech an he was saying with the new head pipe an cat that he wasn't seeing any big gaines by gutting the head pipe. He was also the shop that was doing vance an Hines dynos for them.
Because of storms that hit Daytona.
They are giving so hell of deals so far this year.
 

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Chief Safety Ossifer , CEO Doofus HD
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Discussion Starter #17
Spoke with GM at dealer outside the DC Beltway; Here is his take:
1. Short version is that HD will void powertrain warranty if aftermarket tuner is used.
2. However if you use aftermarket header HD’s tuner will not have proper mapping.
3. But, why use an aftermarket header?
4. In the past the answer was: power, heat reduction and sound.
5. Bike now has much more power and much less heat so reasons of power and heat are less important.


I was considering to give a 17 a try after I sell my 16 CVO -- but -- I'd hate to ride a bike that is chained to EPA compliance !
 

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I had a Florida dealer install on my 2017 Rgs...an they tuned it with power vision.
An said that it wouldn't void warranty...
I'm sorry, my friend, but they are dead wrong. If you have a powertrain problem while still under warranty, and you come to the dealer with that powertrain problem, the dealer MUST deny your warranty claim. They have no choice. If they do pay your warranty claim, they are in direct violation of the Consent Decree between the EPA and Harley-Davidson Inc, and if/when they get caught, the fines will be enormous.

Spoke with GM at dealer outside the DC Beltway; Here is his take:
1. Short version is that HD will void powertrain warranty if aftermarket tuner is used.
This is correct.
 

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#3 is not correct. You can put on aftermarket a/c or exhaust. However, you have two choices to retain your warranty: 1. Don't tune the bike. 2. Tune it as close as you can with the new Pro Street Tuner. If you use any other tuner module, your powertrain warranty is indeed gone.

However, currently nobody knows for sure what "tells" the MoCo has built in to the '17 ECM. There are rumors that if you put on aftermarket a/c or exhaust, thus causing the air flow to be above stock specs, the ECM will record a fault, "may" cause the check engine light to go on, and this "may" not resettable at the dealership. If this is correct, resetting the tune to stock won't work.



Not any more. The EPA and the MoCo have agreed that every dealership, and the MoCo, must maintain a database of every single powertrain warranty claim submitted on a '17 or newer bike. This database would, obviously, include the VIN. Current best guess, (everybody is still guessing on a lot of this), is that the ECM will record the fact that a tuner other than the new Pro Street Tuner has been connected to the bike. If so, any powertrain warranty claim MUST be denied by the dealer, or bad shit will happen.

If you want to do powertrain improvements to your '17, you have four options:

1. All SE components, SE Pro Street Tuner module, and official EPA/CARB compliant download maps.
2. Any other aftermarket powertrain upgrades, but tune only with SE Pro Street Tuner.
3. Wait two years and do what you want. Don't spend the money on an ESP, obviously.
4. Do what you want now, and give up your powertrain warranty if you use any other tuner module.
Hoping somebody can explain how this is working to me BUT -

Unless the ECM unit is a new one on the 17s that I'm not familiar with I don't think that they have this ability to record. Especially if one is using a piggyback tuner like the PC V where the ECM in theory isn't aware of what's going on. An ECM is not a recording device but a input/output box that given inputs spits out a corresponding command to make the engine do something. In a simple sense it works like a logic sequence problem: - If "A" then "B" where "A" is the input from sensors on the bike (O2, TPS, RPM etc) and "B" is the corresponding output from the ECM to the engine (ie. more or less fuel in to the combustion chamber). A PCV tuner just inserts an extra step: If "A" then "B" then "C" where "A" is the same and "B" is the same but goes to the tuner which sends a corresponding "C" to the engine based on the ECM's "B". If you take off the tuner the result is you go back to the original/stock processes where "B" goes straight to the engine as the PCV doesn't actually modify the ECM. Is there other ways to tell based on actual physical evidence - absolutely - but not without tearing apart the engine as long as one is careful when installing and removing their tuner and any other performance bits.

If the ECMs have a memory chip that is recording all in/out puts over the lifetime of a vehicle than it would have to be a very obvious modification as an ECM would need to have an additional module that is recording all of these interactions. Granted - I'm not a licensed/experienced technician that works everyday on diagnostics and repairs to vehicles but I do have a pretty good understanding on the Computer side of an ECM. If I'm way off base here I would love an education as more knowledge is always good knowledge in my books. Provided the conversation is not: "you're stupid" which helps nobody except maybe an ego.

Now if you wanted to flash tune (ie. FP3) I could see where this would be an issue as you would actually be changing the programming of the ECM's process map and I'm not 100% convinced that the "stock" map is an exact match for what comes direct from the mothership since V&H promises improved response and power even on a stock bike but who knows there?

Thoughts?
 

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As the GM told me, after his conversations with the senior service manager, and as you've correctly stated, the ECM is constantly monitoring the outputs of the various sensors. And, as one current example, if the outputs of the various sensors go outside set parameters, the ECM will switch from closed loop to open loop operation.

In exactly the same way adaptive fuel data changes are recorded, if the ECM determines that the outputs of the various sensors are indicating the the bike is no longer "stock", then it very well may record such data, and the record of these changes could be used to indicate that changes were made to the bike.

I would agree that use of a piggy back tuner would probably not cause this to happen.

Dunno, man, that's all I got.
 
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