Thanks for the info.
I'm planning to talk with a dealership tomorrow about it, not that I plan on replacing my '15 anytime soon.
I wonder if we'll see underwriters developing a new type of ESP? The way I read all of this is that it only applies to the 24-month factory warranty.

 

I'd be curious if you were bringing your bike in for service and it had a powervision or tts tune that was in epa spec and you threw your old air filter and pipes back on would they know? obviously that's PITA but an interesting hypothetical question

 

It looks like the older model Harley's value just went up. :grin:

 

I'm going to test ride an M8 tomorrow. I know FULLSAC is making progress on the headers and TTS map. But - as a lifetime Fed who has seen so much unrestrained inanity -- I fear for the future of tuning -- performance -- warranty. I fear the 3 shall forever now be in conflict.

 

There is so much rumor and most of it passed along from employees none of which know than to pass along shit on shingles. Quote a source with your rumor, and a valid source at that.

 

He is correct, the warranty policy has always existed and the fines for circumventing EPA compliance have always existed. So anytime in the past you've gone in with an aftermarket cam, tuner, exhaust, or other parts you are likely voiding the warranty. Whether or not the dealer gigs you on it depends on your relationship. This is true with cars, trucks, buses, etc.. A classic example is aftermarket tuners or custom exhaust systems on diesel pickups. I never let a dealer touch my bike after I ride it off the lot so not an issue for me or others that do their own work. Now, an aftermarket extended warranty may not matter as it's really just an insurance policy not in fact a warranty, but you'd have to check the individual policy language for specific terms and conditions. I did ask my dealer here in Tulsa just to get their take on it and they say no changes in the way they administer warranty on the 17s from previous years, but since I've never utilized their shop I can't speak to their policies.

 

Amen. To add to the nonsense up here - 4 dealerships are now owned by "car dealer" parent companies and they have no concept of "traditional support".

 

Sorta taking the fun out of things......

 

Just got email reply from DEALER 3:
"Any tuner other than HD Street Tuner will void your power train warranty."
Research continues

 

I had my 1K service for new '17 RGS yesterday and added SE hi airflow and told the service manager I wanted to do my own tune with Fuelpak 3. I asked him if I should flash it back to stock before I took it in. He asked around and consulted the techs. I asked about warranty risk and the message was that "they know how to talk to the MoCo when it comes to warranty issues.

Realistically, the dealerships get paid for warranty work and lose customers by unreasonably denying warranty work.

 

I had my 1K service for new '17 RGS yesterday and added SE hi airflow and told the service manager I wanted to do my own tune with Fuelpak 3. I asked him if I should flash it back to stock before I took it in. He asked around and consulted the techs. I asked about warranty risk and the message was that "they know how to talk to the MoCo when it comes to warranty issues.



Realistically, the dealerships get paid for warranty work and lose customers by unreasonably denying warranty work.

Same thing my dealer said.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

3. Any other add ons affecting engine/power/air will void the warranty...

#3 is not correct. You can put on aftermarket a/c or exhaust. However, you have two choices to retain your warranty: 1. Don't tune the bike. 2. Tune it as close as you can with the new Pro Street Tuner. If you use any other tuner module, your powertrain warranty is indeed gone.

However, currently nobody knows for sure what "tells" the MoCo has built in to the '17 ECM. There are rumors that if you put on aftermarket a/c or exhaust, thus causing the air flow to be above stock specs, the ECM will record a fault, "may" cause the check engine light to go on, and this "may" not resettable at the dealership. If this is correct, resetting the tune to stock won't work.

I had my 1K service for new '17 RGS yesterday and added SE hi airflow and told the service manager I wanted to do my own tune with Fuelpak 3. I asked him if I should flash it back to stock before I took it in. He asked around and consulted the techs. I asked about warranty risk and the message was that "they know how to talk to the MoCo when it comes to warranty issues.

Realistically, the dealerships get paid for warranty work and lose customers by unreasonably denying warranty work.

Not any more. The EPA and the MoCo have agreed that every dealership, and the MoCo, must maintain a database of every single powertrain warranty claim submitted on a '17 or newer bike. This database would, obviously, include the VIN. Current best guess, (everybody is still guessing on a lot of this), is that the ECM will record the fact that a tuner other than the new Pro Street Tuner has been connected to the bike. If so, any powertrain warranty claim MUST be denied by the dealer, or bad shit will happen.

If you want to do powertrain improvements to your '17, you have four options:

1. All SE components, SE Pro Street Tuner module, and official EPA/CARB compliant download maps.
2. Any other aftermarket powertrain upgrades, but tune only with SE Pro Street Tuner.
3. Wait two years and do what you want. Don't spend the money on an ESP, obviously.
4. Do what you want now, and give up your powertrain warranty if you use any other tuner module.

 

#3 is not correct. You can put on aftermarket a/c or exhaust. However, you have two choices to retain your warranty: 1. Don't tune the bike. 2. Tune it as close as you can with the new Pro Street Tuner. If you use any other tuner module, your powertrain warranty is indeed gone.

However, currently nobody knows for sure what "tells" the MoCo has built in to the '17 ECM. There are rumors that if you put on aftermarket a/c or exhaust, thus causing the air flow to be above stock specs, the ECM will record a fault, "may" cause the check engine light to go on, and this "may" not resettable at the dealership. If this is correct, resetting the tune to stock won't work.



Not any more. The EPA and the MoCo have agreed that every dealership, and the MoCo, must maintain a database of every single powertrain warranty claim submitted on a '17 or newer bike. This database would, obviously, include the VIN. Current best guess, (everybody is still guessing on a lot of this), is that the ECM will record the fact that a tuner other than the new Pro Street Tuner has been connected to the bike. If so, any powertrain warranty claim MUST be denied by the dealer, or bad shit will happen.

If you want to do powertrain improvements to your '17, you have four options:

1. All SE components, SE Pro Street Tuner module, and official EPA/CARB compliant download maps.
2. Any other aftermarket powertrain upgrades, but tune only with SE Pro Street Tuner.
3. Wait two years and do what you want. Don't spend the money on an ESP, obviously.
4. Do what you want now, and give up your powertrain warranty if you use any other tuner module.

Hoping somebody can explain how this is working to me BUT -

Unless the ECM unit is a new one on the 17s that I'm not familiar with I don't think that they have this ability to record. Especially if one is using a piggyback tuner like the PC V where the ECM in theory isn't aware of what's going on. An ECM is not a recording device but a input/output box that given inputs spits out a corresponding command to make the engine do something. In a simple sense it works like a logic sequence problem: - If "A" then "B" where "A" is the input from sensors on the bike (O2, TPS, RPM etc) and "B" is the corresponding output from the ECM to the engine (ie. more or less fuel in to the combustion chamber). A PCV tuner just inserts an extra step: If "A" then "B" then "C" where "A" is the same and "B" is the same but goes to the tuner which sends a corresponding "C" to the engine based on the ECM's "B". If you take off the tuner the result is you go back to the original/stock processes where "B" goes straight to the engine as the PCV doesn't actually modify the ECM. Is there other ways to tell based on actual physical evidence - absolutely - but not without tearing apart the engine as long as one is careful when installing and removing their tuner and any other performance bits.

If the ECMs have a memory chip that is recording all in/out puts over the lifetime of a vehicle than it would have to be a very obvious modification as an ECM would need to have an additional module that is recording all of these interactions. Granted - I'm not a licensed/experienced technician that works everyday on diagnostics and repairs to vehicles but I do have a pretty good understanding on the Computer side of an ECM. If I'm way off base here I would love an education as more knowledge is always good knowledge in my books. Provided the conversation is not: "you're stupid" which helps nobody except maybe an ego.

Now if you wanted to flash tune (ie. FP3) I could see where this would be an issue as you would actually be changing the programming of the ECM's process map and I'm not 100% convinced that the "stock" map is an exact match for what comes direct from the mothership since V&H promises improved response and power even on a stock bike but who knows there?

Thoughts?

 

Dealer 4 told me today, "We have not ret had a buyer brave enough to try catless headers, big AC, non-SE tuner and aftermarket muffs". // I'm betting the next few months will see more info on here as riders experiment. DOOF

 

I had a Florida dealer install on my 2017 Rgs. That i didn't buy from them. The heavey breather an rinhart 4.5 slip on's an they tuned it with power vision.
An said that it wouldn't void warranty .
I would have went with screaming eagle if i had to ,but they sold pv and recommend it because of auto tune features.
Now i dont want cause any trouble so ill leave there name out.
But they did give receipts for all the work.
So i guess time will tell. Lol

 

This is good news - and I'm glad for you ! Keep us informed on the performance too please. To be clear, you still have the stock headers on there with the cat ? Thnx, DOOF

 

Yes still has stock head pipe an cat.
Rinehart rep said the true dual x header should be out late November early December. So ill add that then.
It performs really well now though.
I all most had it dynoed. I was talking to the tech an he was saying with the new head pipe an cat that he wasn't seeing any big gaines by gutting the head pipe. He was also the shop that was doing vance an Hines dynos for them.
Because of storms that hit Daytona.
They are giving so hell of deals so far this year.

 

Spoke with GM at dealer outside the DC Beltway; Here is his take:
1. Short version is that HD will void powertrain warranty if aftermarket tuner is used.
2. However if you use aftermarket header HD’s tuner will not have proper mapping.
3. But, why use an aftermarket header?
4. In the past the answer was: power, heat reduction and sound.
5. Bike now has much more power and much less heat so reasons of power and heat are less important.


I was considering to give a 17 a try after I sell my 16 CVO -- but -- I'd hate to ride a bike that is chained to EPA compliance !

 

As the GM told me, after his conversations with the senior service manager, and as you've correctly stated, the ECM is constantly monitoring the outputs of the various sensors. And, as one current example, if the outputs of the various sensors go outside set parameters, the ECM will switch from closed loop to open loop operation.

In exactly the same way adaptive fuel data changes are recorded, if the ECM determines that the outputs of the various sensors are indicating the the bike is no longer "stock", then it very well may record such data, and the record of these changes could be used to indicate that changes were made to the bike.

I would agree that use of a piggy back tuner would probably not cause this to happen.

Dunno, man, that's all I got.

 

"EPA parameters" seems to be the law - for now - that Dealers must follow - or - pay EPA a $36K fine. But, the GM above I spoke with said the HD Street Tuner WILL accept the 2017 SE catalog items such as bigger AC and street cannons. It will NOT accept the absence of a CAT. It all sux. But lets hope work arounds get created in a "compromise". Im not counting on it though. DOOF

 

Well, if you look at the street tuner, the cost did go up $50 so either that is to make up for the $150 they are losing on the old SEPT or it is to cover the cost of the enhancements of the ECM to now enable recording - Either way, the CAT is the end all be all stop gap of the M8s - I rode a Stage 3 114 Kit M8 that was not all bad and it was 100% by the book so while it is not the same sound or granular performance of my 117 Stage 4.........it is far from shitty.........just different now fuckers - Bruce Jenner has tits, Cops in Chicago are now afraid to shoot their guns, we may soon have a woman president and new Harleys sound like Hondas........the world has gone to hell :laugh:

 

Damn, was that a great movie or what.

 

Jack is my all time fav - Everyone says DeNiro or Pachino......hell, even some Brando but I'll take Jack every time

 

I'm just wondering if there's much new with this topic? I spoke to my dealer after buying the bike and they were trying to sell me all kinds of non EPA mufflers and saying if there was a warranty issue they knew how to deal with the MoCo (kinda like what someone else said). I can't imagine it'll be that easy and I wonder if they've missed a memo...

I went aftermarket for muffs but it's the FM Hi Rollers (arriving today! and of course the wife decided to work from home today :surprise. I'll probably do the SE tuner even though I have a PV from another bike I could use.

 

The EPA/MoCo Consent Decree doesn't say anything at all about aftermarket parts, such as mufflers. What it DOES say is this:

1. If you use a non-EPA/non-CARB compliant tuner module to tune your bike, the MoCo and the dealership must void your powertrain warranty.

2. All warranty claims, whether granted or denied, must be recorded by the MoCo, and the EPA has access to all databases of warranty claims.

3. If a dealership gets caught honoring a warranty claim on a bike that has been tuned with a non-EPA/non-CARB compliant tuner module, the fine is $2,000 for every violation.

What does this mean to you? The EPA does not care what you do with one (1) motorcycle. They care about what the MoCo has been doing with millions of motorcycles. If you put aftermarket parts on your '17, the EPA does not care. If you use a PV to tune your bike, the EPA does not care. Unless the dealership is terminally stupid, they will not tune your bike for you using a non-EPA/non-CARB compliant tuner module. On the other hand, if you use the "legal" SE Pro Street Tuner, you can find the best starting map, and then the tuner does allow "some" adjustments to be made.

 

I imagine things change after the first dealer gets fined and that news makes its way around.

 

I was talking to a senior employee at our parent dealership. He went to the Dealer Meeting, and he told me that if a dealership really got stupid, they could lose their franchise.

To your point, if a dealer goes rogue, I wouldn't be surprised if the MoCo made an example of them. Not only to show the rest of the dealers that this is serious shit, but also to make a statement to the EPA.

 

I was reading the warranty info at the back of the owners manual and I clearly got the impression that HD has a big out if the dealer doesn't stick to plan.

Something else I found interesting is that the warranty will not apply to any motorcycle that has been dropped. Wonder how many times that's been enforced?

 

In reading the forum, and I'm new to the site, I was wondering what MOCO and SEPT stand for.

 

MoCo is short for Harley-Davidson Motor Company, Inc.

SEPT is missing a few letters. SEPST stands for Screamin' Eagle Pro Super Tuner, aka Screamin' Eagle Super Tuner Pro.

Newest version is the Screamin' Eagle Pro Street Tuner.

I lived in Naperville for 20 years. Where are you?

 

I was on the Naperville Fire Department for over 27 years. Southsider my whole life, now SouthWESTsider. Live in Mokena, just off I-80.

I mistyped the SEPT....I meant SERT.

 

Awesome! My dad was a Naperville police officer back in the 1950's, when there were still more cows than residents.

SERT is the Screamin' Eagle Race Tuner, which was discontinued in 2008. Unfortunately, many people still use that acronym to refer to the Screamin' Eagle Pro Super Tuner, which was its replacement up through 8/23/2016, when the Consent Decree between the MoCo and the EPA mandated the destruction of all remaining stocks of the Pro Super Tuner.

Go Cubs!

 

You don't get much snow? I would love to ride year around, but I won't go out if there's a possibility of ice. Not worth laying the bike down.

How many years did your dad work for Naperville? When did he retire (if he did). Just wondering if he knew some of the few guys I knew. Did you know any of the FD guys who ride?

I have to hand it to you, moving out of State and starting new.

 

I live just inside the Idaho state line, right across the Snake River from the SE corner of Washington state. This part of Idaho has been known as "the banana belt" of Idaho for decades. Total annual snowfall is around 6". In a few one inch snowfalls and a few flurries. The city doesn't even own a snowplow. I have touched my snow shovel twice in three winters. Total.

I'm 68, and my dad was a cop in Naperville and Elmhurst in the late 1950's, so I don't think anyone you know would have known him. I did recognize a name that he worked with on the monument for fallen officers outside the front of the main police building. I can't remember it at the moment. It may be "Gieske". I had seven bikes before I went into the military, but I wasn't riding when I lived in Naperville.

The move was definitely an adventure. My wife's folks live here, and we've been coming out on vacations for over ten years. Just fell in love with the place. Our kids are grown, and my wife's dad started having some health issues, so that was the omen that this was going to happen. Plus my mom lives in central California, so I'm closer to her as well. Everything just fell together. It really was destined to happen. We sold our home in Naperville the first morning it was listed, to the first person who looked at it, for more than we would have dreamed of getting a few years earlier. And we found our dream home here. Property taxes are a third what they were back in Illinois.

Hate to do this to you, but this is less than an hour from the house. You can see a tiny piece of the road through the trees center right.

 

Maybe you know the reason for this, I see that the date is ok on the posts, but the time is way out of wack.

My last post shows being posted at 0351 hours but it is 2151 hours here. Do all posts go Greenwich time?

 

The time on your last two posts is showing 7:51 pm and 7:55 pm, which is PST here. So whatever that 03:51 time was, it was an anomaly that is either just showing on your end, or it has corrected itself.

 

Fresno area. Clovis Hi, Fresno State. My mom still lives in Coarsegold, just up 41 towards Yosemite.