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Discussion Starter #1
I would say in the last 2k miles I have added 2 qts of oil? I asked the dealer (my warranty on stage2 was up last week) if it could be burning it pass the piston rings and he said for me to check the sprak plugs. I pulled one off last night and while it had a small amount of black on it I would expect it to be very obvious? Does anyone know of some other checks I can do myself without removing heads and such to determine where it may be going?

My exhaust pipes are very sooty but when it's running you cannot see black smoke or any smoke at all, plus it is running well, no sluggish response, no hesitating or huge backfiring. I do get a small amount of backfire every now and then but nothing ridiculous.

09 RG and I had the 103 upgrade done to it at HD. FYI not related but I am on my 2nd starter since upgrading motor which is now a SE one.

where else could the oil be going if it's not burning and not leaking externally?

Thanks
 

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Transmission?

Have you checked the level of oil in your transmission?
I seem to remember another post where the guy had the same problem.
If that's not it, check the level in the primary too.
It's gotta be going somewhere.
I think if it was burning in the cylinders, you see a good bit of grey smoke, not black.
Good luck! Keep us posted.

HSP
 

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One quart in a 1000 miles isn't good, but I don't believe Harley will pull a top end under warranty until consumption is over that level.

Check the Primary pull the derby cover with a drain pan underneath, just in case. Your shifting should be affected if you've got 2 qts extra oil in there, but if it occurs over time you may not realize the change.

For oil to get in the transmission you'd need quite a lot of oil in the Primary first.
 

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Sounds like it could be the umbrella valves in the cylinder heads are not functioning properly. The umbrella valves are part of your crankcase vent system and when not working properly they will dump more oil then normal into the intake and then the engine will burn the oil. Pull your air filter and see if you have oil standing inside the throttle body or if your air filter is oil soaked, you may not see much oil because the oil is sucked into the combustion chambers but there may be some unusual oil build up there.
 

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Make sure when you check your plugs that you focus on the porcelain insulator rather than the firing tip. It should be very light gray to white with no dark colored areas. You said your pipes are "very sooty" which means your running very rich a/f ratios or your burning oil. Wipe your finger on the inside of the pipe, the black should not feel in any way greasy. How many miles are on the motor since the 103 kit was installed?
 

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Discussion Starter #6
Thanks, Porcelain tip looks good. There are 10k mi. since the 103 upgrade. I will check tranny and primary this weekend.. I may drop it off at HD and have them troubleshoot it depending on cost. Shifting seems fine as well...I will update..
 

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Discussion Starter #7
Dealer found 10% leak by the piston rings, said they never seated. Even though I am 4 weeks past the warranty they replaced the pistons, rings, and cylinders under warranty..Phew..Just hope the starter holds up turning new pistons over now.. I am already on my 2nd one since doing this upgrade.



Ill tell ya this is the last motor I will ever do more than a stage 1 upgrade on.. It has been a nightmare since day 1 and to be honest the power increase is not as much as I thought it would be.
 

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Discussion Starter #8
Well bike been running normally since this repair, however noticed on last ride a very louder than normal noise coming from the engine area, at 1st thought it may be a loose exhaust bolts or something.. Just checked oil level and it is absolutely bone dry.

To be honest I did not check oil level after they replaced the rings as I assume they put oil in it and I doubt it would last this long with no oil so that means it is still burning a ton of oil?? ARRGGHHHH

I will call dealer tomorow, is it possible for the level to be bone dry and the oil light to never come on and also the pressure gauge seems to react normally as well?? I wish I had never had this motor opened up...Man this really sucks..
 

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if the motor seems low on power and no oil in resevoir it may be sumping.

Eagle
 

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How long is "this long" in run hours or miles? Leave the starter out of the post, you not leakin nothin, right? Heat, no one lungin? Blue smoke? Your filter or sensin systems should be kickin in, and motor weak and you can hear noise over pipes?
 

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Discussion Starter #11
This is long,is since the dealer replaced the piston rings in late June because I was burning oil. Atleast thats what it seemed like I had to keep adding a quart or so every 1500mi. After I picked it up I did not check the oil level as I assumed they filled it after replacing the rings. So I doubt it has been running since June with no oil.

No leaks that I have seen, no blue smoke although the exhaust pipes have a thick black residue, motor does seem a little weak but I just always figured the 103 upgrade from a 96" did not do much if anything at all.

I had the stage 2 done at app. 32k miles and she now has 46k. They replaced the piston rings under warranty at about 42k miles this June.

I can hear the lifters loud as hell, (No oil) and the low oil light never came or comes on?

BTW what is sumping?

I am calling dealer this morning any thoghts I should throw at him?
 

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Is there still oil in the bike? Is the bike still under warranty? Maybe you should do a oil change and see if the lifter noise goes away before you call the dealer. If the bike is still under warranty you want to make sure the oil level is up and doesn't look like new oil (ride the bike for a while) before you take it to the dealer. If you take the bike into the dealer with real low oil or no oil in it the blame may be put on you and you would be responsible for all the repair cost.
 

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Discussion Starter #13
Is there still oil in the bike? Is the bike still under warranty? Maybe you should do a oil change and see if the lifter noise goes away before you call the dealer. If the bike is still under warranty you want to make sure the oil level is up and doesn't look like new oil (ride the bike for a while) before you take it to the dealer. If you take the bike into the dealer with real low oil or no oil in it the blame may be put on you and you would be responsible for all the repair cost.
Yeah good point, I doubt it is completely dry as it would surely seize. Does anyone know how many qts you have to put in before it shows up on the dipstick? I have not really had time to troubleshoot but hope to today or sunday.
 

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Yeah good point, I doubt it is completely dry as it would surely seize. Does anyone know how many qts you have to put in before it shows up on the dipstick? I have not really had time to troubleshoot but hope to today or sunday.
Now that depends on how low the oil is! When I do a complete oil change I put in 3 1/2 qts. You could just add oil and take it to the dealer but don't tell them you run the bike real low on oil, just tell them the bike is using a lot of oil and you have to keep adding oil. I still think the umbrella valves in the cylinder heads are not functioning properly which is causing the oil to run into the air cleaner and then into the cylinders.
 

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Discussion Starter #16
I put 2qts of oil in it yesterday and it is still only half way up the dipstick. Took to dealer and they will look at it and call me back today. I looked underneath and it looks a little wet near the fwd oil pan screw and also near the gasket that sepeartes motor from tranny. This gasket was already replaced once and was like $400 because you have to take motor apart to get to it.

Dealer told me they had someone in a few weeks ago with same issues and when they took the derby cover off 2 qts of oil came out of the primary and that could be my problem as well.
 

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Moto,
you asked what sumping is, it is when all the oil stays in the crankcase and the flywheels are turning in it making extra resistance for the motor , also when you check your oil you will show low since the oil is in the crankcase not the oil resevoir it can also cause weird noises since it usually also means the scavange side of the oil pump is not working as it should .
Hope this explains it clearly for you.

Eagle
 

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Discussion Starter #18
Dealer could not find anyting wrong, so I changed the oil and will monitor closely for awhile. BTW I only put 3-1/2 qts in her and she is full, even after running for awhile.

He also said these motors should go through about 1qt every 1500-2000mi according to harley? He also said because it is air cooled it will use oil and that is just the nature of the beast. I thought they used a lil oil but I never thought 1 qt every 1500mi was acceptable to harley?? Anmyone else ever hear that?
 

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If you ask a HD dealer everthing is normal all the time. Did they just replace the piston and rings? The bike will use a little oil during normal operation most of it going though the crankcase breather and into the intake to be burned in the cylinders. Even though HD says the bike takes 4 qts of oil 3 1/2 qts of oil is all you should put in the bike on a oil change any more then that and the extra oil will go through the crankcase breather and collect in the air filter. The oil on the cylinder base is because when they worked on the top end the o-ring at the cylinder base was over oiled, this will go away, the oil at the bottom may be from a recent oil change. It is up to you to keep a eye on the oil so check it everytime before you ride the bike.
 

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Dealer could not find anyting wrong, so I changed the oil and will monitor closely for awhile. BTW I only put 3-1/2 qts in her and she is full, even after running for awhile.

He also said these motors should go through about 1qt every 1500-2000mi according to harley? He also said because it is air cooled it will use oil and that is just the nature of the beast. I thought they used a lil oil but I never thought 1 qt every 1500mi was acceptable to harley?? Anmyone else ever hear that?
Many times these tech monkeys at a dealership don't know why something is making a noise or behaving in a strange manner. Most will not tell you "I don't know why". Instead, they will make up some kind of wild bullshit and see if you go for it, especially if they sense you have little mechanical background. My wife gets so mad at the dealership when she takes her car in to get it serviced that I have to make sure she does not take a baseball bat with her when she leaves. She comes back home and is in a foul mood for 5 or 6 hours. She says "those bastards think I am a stupid bitch just because I wear a dress". So, if you feel like they are feeding you bullshit, go to another dealer. It won't cost you any more or less and eventually you might find one that is honest with you. And for what it is worth, a engine should not use 1 quart every 1500-2000 miles unless something is wrong or you are flat tracking it around a course on Saturday night for 3 hours.
 
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