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Discussion Starter #1
until i can afford a full exhaust system and Power Commander, can I install my Ness Sucker Stage II Derby Cover Air Cleaner and run stock?
I bought the Derby Sucker Air Cleaner and am wanting to put it on just for looks right now. Will the bike run just like stock even with an open air cleaner and no other mods?
 

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What do they say about it? The manufacturer will usually tell you whether or not it needs a tune. You can always mount it and try it out. All the Stage one kits i've seen recommend a tune.
 

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Discussion Starter #4
I understand HD can do a reflash, but i figure with the stock ECU it sort of tunes itself to run at the stock AFR. Basically even though the air cleaner will allow more air, the ECU will not allow it to take in any more until you teach the ECU to do differently. Same with exhaust, you can run a freer flowing exhaust, but without the reflash it will only adjust to run at stock AFR. So no performance will be gained. I figure I would save the money until I can get the exhaust and Power Commander.
Currently i have a nightstick slip on exhaust, but didnt do the HD reflash.
 

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Discussion Starter #5 (Edited)
Sorry about the picture page here, but i wanted to show the Dyno Chart AN has on the website.
I called them to ask about this chart specifically and it was done with stock exhaust and no reflash of any kind. Simply putting on the Air Cleaner.
They say the bike will run a bit lean, but if you get the Harley recommended reflash after this, you will have to do anther reflash if you put on a full exhaust and Power Commander.
So I got my question answered. Yes you can add the Air Cleaner with no other mods. The bike will run lean, but will gain some added power.


 

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Your ECU cannot do anything to prevent the intake or exhaust of air. You need more fuel when you add more air this is why you need a tune. Now will it hurt your bike to run an exhaust and intake without this who knows but you should be able to get the dealer to download the stage 1 map to your ECU without it costing too much. Your ecu won't need a flash after you get a power commander that's what the unit does it's a piggy back to the ecu and has it's own maps/tuning that override the ECU. They are right your bike will run lean it runs lean from the factory the add ons will only make it worse.
 

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Discussion Starter #7
Thanks for helping me understand this.
So basically I will be allowing more air in than probably the ECU can handle, but i also understand that the 2010s ECU will adjust for proper 14.6/1 AFR (within its limits, Im sure) So perhaps I am allowing more air than the ECU can deal with, so it will not adjust the right amount of fuel, there for the bike will run a little lean.
Am I understanding it correctly now?
 

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I don't want to misspeak on what the harley ECU does or doesn't do but I didn't think they were self adjusting. If so I don't know why you would need a flash or PC if you were not going need to exceed the limits of your stock o2 sensors. I just know that most bikes base maps are set to run lean in order to meet EPA standards. When you add more air to an already lean running motor that's not good. I know plenty of people running an exhaust on the stock map but no one who is running a stage one kit plus exhaust without the stage one map. I have it on mine and the bike runs really well.
 

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Discussion Starter #9 (Edited)
Its a lot to understand... and I have a long long way to go.
I may just have to pony up and get the flash.
But to some extent I believe the bike runs 95% of the time in the Closed loop system which adjusts for proper AFR. Similar to how it will adjust for altitude etc.
I need to sit down and talk with someone to help me explain it.
 

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If you're not changing the exhaust, you should be alright with just the Big Sucker. It can try to suck all the air it wants, but if the exhaust is as restrictive as stock, there won't be any increase in the volume of air flow or performance gain.
 

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If you're not changing the exhaust, you should be alright with just the Big Sucker. It can try to suck all the air it wants, but if the exhaust is as restrictive as stock, there won't be any increase in the volume of air flow or performance gain.
He has slip ons already and the stock intake is pretty restrictive there will definitely be an increase in air flow with a big sucker. It won't be what it would with a full exhaust system though.
 

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Discussion Starter #12
If you're not changing the exhaust, you should be alright with just the Big Sucker. It can try to suck all the air it wants, but if the exhaust is as restrictive as stock, there won't be any increase in the volume of air flow or performance gain.
Well Im not so sure about that KTM Scott.
I called Arlen Ness and asked how they got the performance gains they have on the dyno sheet i posted up. That is just with their Stage II air Cleaner, and no other mods to the bike. Completely Stock everything. no reflash, no power commander or Big Shot. Just stock.
I do have the SE Nightstick Slip-on exhaust, and no other mods. I didnt do HD's reflash for the exhaust either and the bike runs fine. Ness says the bike will run a little lean with this Air Cleaner. And most people on here say I need to do HD's $150 re flash. Which is why im So confused. I really want a full exhaust system and a Power Commander, but just cant afford it until this winter. And I figured why bother spending $150 for the reflash, if Im gonna buy a PC anyway. And then you have to pay to get it tuned...
 

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If you only want to change the sound of your pipes and do not have a high flow air filter then you don't need to do anything; just put on the pipes and go. If you are looking for better performance then you need a high flow kit and a tune.
 

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Discussion Starter #14
If you only want to change the sound of your pipes and do not have a high flow air filter then you don't need to do anything; just put on the pipes and go. If you are looking for better performance then you need a high flow kit and a tune.
Ive found my answer.
The HD reflash doesnt tune for added fuel and air. It really only changes the ignition timing and Rev Limiter.
Since I will be going with a full exhaust system eventually, which will require a tuner, Ive decided to hold off on installing the Big Sucker II until I return from my Road Trip.( dont want a lean running bike for my trip)
When I return I am going to buy the new Power Commander from Fuel Moto ($299) with a pre-downloaded map for the Nightstick and Big Sucker, and just plug it in. Fuel moto has done extensive research on these new bikes with about every set up imaginable, so i totally trust them. When I get my new full exhaust, they will email me a new map for for the PC with the exhaust set up that I can download into my Power Commander and plug it back in. No charge for maps ever, so no wasted money.
 

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Good plan. Nice info on the reflash too that is what the guy that had my bike did with it when he put the stage one kit on. $150 seems pricey to me it's half the cost of a PC. Fuel Moto is a good company Jamie really knows what he is talking about when it comes to tuning.
 

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I agree, good plan. Most people don't understand the difference between getting better performance out of your bike and simply swapping out their pipes. The trick is to get maximum performance with a nice sounding pipe. I always advocate for the RB Racing pipe with a TTS Tune but it will set you back about $1800.00 and that's a lot of money.

I may have my old power commander in my garage; I'll check tonight. It was on my 07 Road Glide. If I still have it you're welcome to take it for free if you just pay the actual shipping charges. I used it when I had V&H Slip-on's on my bike. Let me know.
 

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Discussion Starter #18
I appreciate the offer of your used PC, but i think I want to get the newest version of the PC, and when Purchased through Fuel Moto, they have done all the research for proper tuning with hundreds of different Air Cleaners, Slip ons and full exhausts, and I will have access to their maps anytime for free, and if i change my pipes, they will give me a new map.
This is my first slip on pipe, and I only bought it because it was very inexpensive( from RG forum member), and thought it was worth adding to my bike for a little extra grunt in sound, until i can afford a complete exhaust system. Stock is just way too quiet for me, and drove me crazy after about a week of riding it that way. And as far as the Ness AC goes, though a good investment for increasing power, i bought that particular one for looks as I can add my favorite Grateful Dead Derby cover. Which is why i was wondering if i could just put it on until I can afford a real exhaust, and Power Commander.
So i will have to pony up for the PC now in order to put on the AC so the bike wont run lean, but next I will only have to get the exhaust and i will be all set. No extra money spent at the dealer for re flashing, or tuning. i will have my AC, Tuner, and will only need the exhaust, then tuned for best performance.
 
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