Road Glide banner

1 - 13 of 13 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
98 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
I've researched tuners to the point my head is spinning and I'm no closer to choosing one. I recall there being a thread on here somewhere that highlighted the pros, cons and cost effectiveness of the more popular tuners and I've searched every way I know how and can't seem to find it. Anybody know what I'm talking about and where to find it?
I've got a SE Ventilator AC, de-catted header and Sampson Silver Bullets for my 2011 RGC 96CI. I'm not trying to build a race bike, but I would like for it to run as well as it can, all the while not frying my right ankle nor engine parts. I don't plan on cams or anything that radical. I just put my son in college so budget is kinda tight these days. I'm trying to decide which is the right, cost efective tuner for my goals. I don't mind spending money on my ride, I'd just rather do it smartly. While I understand dyno-tuning will get me the biggest bang for the buck but that's another expense I'd like to avoid if possible.
Any ideas, lay them on me.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,687 Posts
My advice is a Power Vision ~ enables tuning ~ map support ~ and more importantly, when the boy graduates and you drop in the 124 just a new download away ~ Just my 02
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
98 Posts
Discussion Starter #3
I'll admit I'm intrigued by the power vision, but don't you think it's a little over-kill for my goals? That's a significant chunk of change....and then of course I would feel like I had to have the auto-tune to go with it!!!
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
60 Posts
Edit: never mind. I thought you said you ARE building a race bike.

Building a race bike, I highly recommend a flash tuner. I would locate a dyno operator in the area or as far as you're willing to drive to have the bike tuned, ask them questions that would help you feel like the guy/gal is capable AND willing to spend the time it takes to tune a bike of the magnitude a race bike can take to tune and let him suggest which flash tuner he is most comfortable using. If he doesn't care which, (could be a good sign they're well versed in all tuners) the TTS is hard to beat in my personal opinion. It is very robust and has a ton of adjustability. Other flash tuning modules would likely get the job done too so if he recommends another brand and you feel confident in the person doing the tunings ability, maybe let them make the call on which one they prefer.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
276 Posts
While I just did this, From my experience:

I originally went with with the enrichers that go between the O2 sensors and computer. (Sorry can't remember the name of them and pretty sure that I sold them on here) When that didn't work out the way I wanted. They did enrich the fuel, but I had no control over it. So I removed them and replaced it with a Vance and Hines FuelPak. This one worked good at least until I had to unplug it one day and it didn't want to plug in properly, too loose. It is for sale if you want to gamble on it, $50. With a zip tie around it, it would probably be fine. I didn't like the piggie back style so I called FUEL MOTO and after talking to the technicians there I ended up with a power vision. It is plugged in now doing the auto tune. I did not buy the auto tune add on, the power vision is capable of doing it with the factory O2 sensors.

Bottom line, If I had to do it over from the beginning I would just call up FUELMOTO and call it a day!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
168 Posts
I've researched tuners to the point my head is spinning and I'm no closer to choosing one. I recall there being a thread on here somewhere that highlighted the pros, cons and cost effectiveness of the more popular tuners and I've searched every way I know how and can't seem to find it. Anybody know what I'm talking about and where to find it?
I've got a SE Ventilator AC, de-catted header and Sampson Silver Bullets for my 2011 RGC 96CI. I'm not trying to build a race bike, but I would like for it to run as well as it can, all the while not frying my right ankle nor engine parts. I don't plan on cams or anything that radical. I just put my son in college so budget is kinda tight these days. I'm trying to decide which is the right, cost efective tuner for my goals. I don't mind spending money on my ride, I'd just rather do it smartly. While I understand dyno-tuning will get me the biggest bang for the buck but that's another expense I'd like to avoid if possible.
Any ideas, lay them on me.
any of the devices can work fine, depends on the maps. I went with a dyno tune and couldn't be happier.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,073 Posts
I'll admit I'm intrigued by the power vision, but don't you think it's a little over-kill for my goals? That's a significant chunk of change....and then of course I would feel like I had to have the auto-tune to go with it!!!
no, it isn't overkill. for the money, the pv gives you a lot. you can flash your new tune, and then put the pv unit in your toolbox. or you can leave it hooked up and monitor the functions of your bike. it also makes it a breeze to pull any trouble codes should you get a check engine light. and you can impress your friends by pulling their trouble codes when they get a cel :D

and, it comes with auto tune basic included which does a pretty good job itself.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
98 Posts
Discussion Starter #10
Thanks

Thanks for all the suggestions. I decided to go with the Power Vision and AC combo from FuelMoto. I don't really need the AC but you can't beat the price and at the least I'll have some good swap fodder. Who knows, I may even like it better than my Ventilator.
On another note, I found the tuner thread I mentioned in my first post. It was not on here, but another HD website (HDforums.com) I frequent. This rundown is by a guy that goes by the Screen name "DK Custom". Otherwise I don't know the guy but I do appreciate his efforts trying to encapsulate the whole tuner thing. As a guy who didn't know anything about tuners I found I got quite a bit from his post. Should anybody disagree with anything he states DON'T SHOOT THE MESSENGER, with me being the messenger in this case. If you should have another perspective that may be helpful, I'm sure there are others here that would like to hear it. His words start after the line....
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Discussions on the different options of tuning an EFI Harley oftentimes are
very limited. Either due to passion, personal experience, etc., the entire
spectrum of options is not explored objectively.


What I want to accomplish with this post is an overview of the variety of
options available, so that people can make an informed decision, based on
their needs, desires and budget.


This is by no means a complete list of all options, but it does encompass
the 5 most popular ways that are currently being used in Stage 1 upgrades.

It also does not delve into a lot of the technical data (and there is a
bunch), it is an overview so that one can choose which path, or paths, they
want to explore more fully.




There are basically five ways to go in the tuning arena of a Stage 1:


1. Do nothing. Many advocate that no tuning change is needed at all when
adding free flowing mufflers and intake. The ECM will make necessary
adjustments.

It is true that the ECM will make adjustments, and the bike will run.
However, it will still be lean and probably even leaner than EPA
requirements. It will run hotter, not accelerate as well, and may have
hesitation in low speed situations.

There are many reports of people being very happy with this option.

This is the least expensive.


2. Use an XiED product. Many are very happy with the improvement in cooling,
reduction in pinging, hesitation, and generally smoother and stronger
acceleration.

This is an excellent option for a stock bike, a bike with free flowing air
cleaner or exhaust, or a bike with both free flowing air cleaner and
exhaust. It uses the base tune from Harley-Davidson, and adds some fuel into
the areas that HD had to lean out for EPA reasons. The results are a much
better running bike.

However, if you are looking for the best possible performance, it does leave
10%-15% of the available power on the table. It is a budget solution that
many are happy with, because to get that extra 10%-15%, one needs to speed
400% to 900% or more money.

This is second least expensive and the most benefit for $ spent.


2.5 The Fuelpak is a piggy back device in a category by itself. It adjusts
the AFR in both open & closed loop. It does not adjust the timing at all.
V&H Customer Support will give you codes based on what mods you have done to
your bike that change the tune. Many use the Fuelpak and are very happy with
it. Others say their experience with it is very poor. Since this option does
not allow any adjustment of timing this can be good for stock bikes up to
Stage 1.

It is over twice the cost of option #2 and just a little less than option
#3. The difference being with option #3 you can adjust timing (on most) and
have complete control over the tune.


3. Use a "piggy-back" tuner like the PCV. These tuners can be used with a
"canned" tune, or can be adjusted on a laptop computer or a Dyno. They
override the Harley-Davidson tune and, if used properly, will deliver 100%
of the available power.

Some do not like them because they sit on top of the HD ECM and in rare
instances that can cause problems. However, in the right hands (a skilled
person) they can give you a great tune, taking full advantage of all
possible power.

This is the third least expensive and results can be great or poor,
completely dependent on the quality and time put into the tune.


4. Use a full featured "flash" tuner like the TTS, SESPT, or Power Vision in
conjunction with a Dyno. These tuners can give you control over the ECM to
get the best possible tune, delivering 100% of all available power. They do
not override the HD tune, they actually change the tune in the ECM.

In the right (experienced & competent) hands, these will deliver the
absolute best possible results. Unfortunately not only is this the most
expensive route to go, there are 99 bad to mediocre people running dyno
tunes for every truly competent person doing dyno tunes. The cost of the
tuner ($500-$600) and another $300- $1000 in dyno costs make this the most
expensive option, with the possibility of not getting any better results
than one would get with a "canned" tune.

This is the most expensive and can deliver the best results, or poor
results, dependent on the person running the dyno.


5. Use a TTS or Power Vision with Auto-Tune. This is the same "flash" tuner
as option #4 above, but instead of spending $ on a Dyno tune, and possibly
getting a poor tune due to the person doing the dyno tune...it uses the
built-in computer to record how you ride, the conditions you ride in, and a
variety of other factors, then the device makes changes accordingly,
improving the tune every time you ride the bike.

This is a sure way to get 99%-100% of all the power available, and not have
it rely on a person running the Dyno, that may or may not do a good job. It
also will adjust for any future modifications done to the bike without
incurring any additional costs.

This is the second most expensive option and reliably delivers great tunes
every time.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
60 Posts
The Actual % will be less...

5. Use a TTS or Power Vision with Auto-Tune... a sure way to get 99%-100% of all the power available, ...
First, thanks Magnum for your interest and searching on this subject.
I would agree with everything stated in your quoted post except the "99-100% of all the power..."

The PV with ATPro WB02 will deliver 90-95% of the power available in the areas in which one is successful of reaching/riding over diligent tuning sessions (rides). BUT to achieve the results stated in the quoted post, it is not possible without a competent dyno tune... there are 4 corners of the RPM/MAP or throttle position that can only be reliably tuned on a dyno by a competent operator. And the details are too extensive to get into here.

Suffice to say that a very very good tune can be achieved with the PV (and the SERT as the only other device I've used) with diligent attention to one's tuning sessions; and for most, including me, the area in which we ride 99% of the time will be very close--the power will be there, the economy, the bike will run smoothly, respond crisply and be fun to ride.

Just my experience over the past 7 years with tuners. Good Luck.
I think you made a wise decision to work with FM; their service is great.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
98 Posts
Discussion Starter #12
JetDe,
I'm no where near smart enough to come up with anything remotely that technical. I tried to give credit where credit was due...I was researching tuners and came across this info in another forum and merely re-posted it here on the outside chance it may help somebody else out. Among the super knowledgeable I'm sure there will be some disagreements on the finer aspects...such as you pointed out. I'm a "in a nutshell" kind of guy so I really benefited from seeing all the pros and cons of each laid out side by side. I did in fact go with the Power Vision from Fuel Moto and with their recommended load I'm absolutely delighted. Along with the header and AC it really woke my bike up. Every time I twist the throttle I get a big grin on my face...I'm gonna get a ticket if I don't watch it...but it's so much fun!!!!!


First, thanks Magnum for your interest and searching on this subject.
I would agree with everything stated in your quoted post except the "99-100% of all the power..."

The PV with ATPro WB02 will deliver 90-95% of the power available in the areas in which one is successful of reaching/riding over diligent tuning sessions (rides). BUT to achieve the results stated in the quoted post, it is not possible without a competent dyno tune... there are 4 corners of the RPM/MAP or throttle position that can only be reliably tuned on a dyno by a competent operator. And the details are too extensive to get into here.

Suffice to say that a very very good tune can be achieved with the PV (and the SERT as the only other device I've used) with diligent attention to one's tuning sessions; and for most, including me, the area in which we ride 99% of the time will be very close--the power will be there, the economy, the bike will run smoothly, respond crisply and be fun to ride.

Just my experience over the past 7 years with tuners. Good Luck.
I think you made a wise decision to work with FM; their service is great.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
60 Posts
... and merely re-posted it here on the outside chance it may help somebody else ...
I did in fact go with the Power Vision from Fuel Moto and with their recommended load I'm absolutely delighted. Along with the header and AC it really woke my bike up. Every time I twist the throttle I get a big grin on my face...I'm gonna get a ticket if I don't watch it...but it's so much fun!!!!!
I totally get the reason you posted that and it will be of great value to others who are going through the decision-making process.
Kudos to you for taking the time and effort to do that.

In no way was my response pointed at the 'messenger' at all.
My point was just to add further definition to what you had posted so that folks don't expect more than what the flash tuners can deliver. And I did mean that they are very good at what they can deliver through careful tuning/riding sessions--they work very well. I switched from the TTS system to the PV system on my last ride (and took it with me to the Shark) because the PV was better for me for the type of riding and monitoring that I like to do.

The FM group is very good; and I've received excellent service from DJ as well.

I know what you mean about 'big grins' and rapidly entering the "ticket" zone and needing to be very careful... no confessions here...
Good Luck!
 
1 - 13 of 13 Posts
Top