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The question still remains unanswered.......Can I finish the season out with it this way? Or should I tear it down right away?
I did just put 1800 mi on it with this problem......
You might try an oil change and see if that helps. I start hearing ticking from my 17 M8 114 after about 3000-4000 miles on the oil.
BG
 
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Yeah I'll absolutely do the work. Hopefully my buddies at my indy will keep giving me the good guy discount on parts....ha ha ha I was planning on switching it out with a S&S Oil cooled 465 chain drive cam chest kit so I don't need to change valve springs. Not a radical cam. Also found in the drag book Jim's makes some rocker arm shaft kits they claim the parallel tolerance or I believe what @Roadsofa what speaking of as end play is 0.0005" and it comes with the stud kit. All together plus the tool for pulling/installation tool for the inner cam bearing. I'm looking at a total of at least $2200 for parts. Needless to say, the wife wasn't pissed I was baffled. LOL Guess I'll be riding my 06 and saving up my pennies for these parts. Harley needs to let me test ride the next new motor and bike....I'll find every weak link in the thing.

I checked out the items you were talking about from JIMS. The measurements they are talking about are not the same as what I am. The end play I am referring to is the amount of movement of the rocker arms between the mounting posts (at least on the M8, twin cam rockers had the entire mount assembly). While it may not be the most exact, what I did was bolt the rocker shaft assembly onto the head. I then measured how much of a gap there was between the rocker arm and a mounting post. This comes into play when the push rod pushes to open and the valve spring pushes to close. If there is an excessive amount the thought is that can create a clack/click as the rocker arm moves back and forth. With twin cams the thought was for best results no more than .002" to .003" cold would be the most quiet. With my measurements with the front head having the largest play and the most noise the theory would seem to apply to M8 as well. Bear in mind, I am a shade tree mechanic, jack of all trades master of none type. I know enough to do the work and understand most of the theory, but, I am by no means an expert. I could never make a living as a wrench because when things aren't working out right I need to step away to recoup. No way to make a living.

Neil
 

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Discussion Starter #24
You might try an oil change and see if that helps. I start hearing ticking from my 17 M8 114 after about 3000-4000 miles on the oil.
BG
I did my 25K oil change no change.
 

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Discussion Starter #25
I am going with S&S premium lifters and quickie pushrods.......Thats what my indy friend suggested. If that doesn't change anything then well then I'll absolutely be saving my pennies for a new S&S cam chest kit and be taking the rocker box covers off to see what I find there.

Also another update: My indy friend suggested that I pull the crank sensor and see if the bike had the sumping problem. After removing the sensor and draining a small amount (3 oz) of oil he said that it was not sumping and that the oil pump was still good. That is when he suggested we try the pushrods and lifters, Which I know this hasn't worked for some of you but its going to be worth it. For those DIYers, J&P has great videos on youtube on how to install the quickie pushrods and lifters.
 

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Discussion Starter #26
I checked out the items you were talking about from JIMS. The measurements they are talking about are not the same as what I am. The end play I am referring to is the amount of movement of the rocker arms between the mounting posts (at least on the M8, twin cam rockers had the entire mount assembly). While it may not be the most exact, what I did was bolt the rocker shaft assembly onto the head. I then measured how much of a gap there was between the rocker arm and a mounting post. This comes into play when the push rod pushes to open and the valve spring pushes to close. If there is an excessive amount the thought is that can create a clack/click as the rocker arm moves back and forth. With twin cams the thought was for best results no more than .002" to .003" cold would be the most quiet. With my measurements with the front head having the largest play and the most noise the theory would seem to apply to M8 as well. Bear in mind, I am a shade tree mechanic, jack of all trades master of none type. I know enough to do the work and understand most of the theory, but, I am by no means an expert. I could never make a living as a wrench because when things aren't working out right I need to step away to recoup. No way to make a living.

Neil
So you're speaking of the gap of the hole in the rocker arm(the one the mounting bolt goes through)? So then the rocker arms move back and forth(left to right), front to back, and up and down? Thence the reason some of these bikes are needing stud kits instead of using the stock bolts? So when you say you closed the tolerance you had a bushing added into the mounting hole on the rocker arm.....sorry man I can only visualize so much through the English language, maybe a rough sketch could help!! Thanks for the advice!!
 

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So you're speaking of the gap of the hole in the rocker arm(the one the mounting bolt goes through)? So then the rocker arms move back and forth(left to right), front to back, and up and down? Thence the reason some of these bikes are needing stud kits instead of using the stock bolts? So when you say you closed the tolerance you had a bushing added into the mounting hole on the rocker arm.....sorry man I can only visualize so much through the English language, maybe a rough sketch could help!! Thanks for the advice!!
I'll try to explain as best I can. The measurements I'm talking about do not involve the bolts that hold down the shafts. What I am talking about involves bolting the shafts in the heads without push rods. In my case I then used feeler gauges to check and see how much of a gap there was between the posts that the rocker shafts bolt to and the rocker arm itself. Without the push rod the rocker arm will move side to side on the shaft a little bit. The more it can move the theory is the more noise it can make when pressure is put on it by the push rod trying to open the valves and when the valve spring then pushes back to close the valve. Even though we're talking thousands of an inch it all adds up and without a water jacket in the head for cooling any noise generated will be heard. For me it just bugs me when the bike starts up cold and is nice and quiet and then as it warms it starts making noises; nature of the beast I know.

Neil
 

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Discussion Starter #28 (Edited)
Update:

With the help of a friend that has a shop we started with a compression test. With the M8's you can run the test with or without the ACR(Automatic Compression Releases) on. We had the air cleaner off and we propped open the throttle valve as indicated in the HD service manual. With the ACRs ON(plugged in), minimum compression is 90 psi. Both cylinders tested well above spec. With ACRs OFF(unplugged), minimum compression is 175 psi. They both passed the test, but here is the funny part, and I think the schrader valve(valve core) on his compression tester is at fault and here is why. When we tested the front cylinder the tester bled off a little then stopped, the rear cylinder test bled off completely, the front cylinder on the second test also bled down like the rear cylinder did. There is no way that this can be an accurate test IMO. The compression tester gauge should hold the reading steady with no bleed down correct? It is not a leak down test nor were we performing one.

We took the rocker box covers off and rolled the motor over. Now this is the interesting part. We noticed that the rear cylinder exhaust valve rocker arms were worn in such a way that a full down pressure had very little contact with the valve. We also noticed some movement in the right side(sitting on the bike right) exhaust valve as if it was bent. We also looked at the side to side end play of the rocker arms and holy sh*t you could move those things by hand. If I remember correctly, and don't quote me but the end play on the service limit on the rocker arm end play is .025" and mine were at .014" which was within the specs. Sounds like a guy needs to get some shims made if that was the only thing that was causing the issue. I think the rocker arms side to side end play is probably an enormous part of the valve train noise I was hearing.

So he thinks it is a combination of rings and valves. I think the rings are fine but the rear head is toast you shouldn't be able to see actual side to side play with a valve. If it is bent then it contacted the piston and a that rate I concur on needing to do the jugs and pistons. Or at the very least pull the jugs and check them with a bore dial gauge, for taper, out of round and oversize, and see if it actually needs new jugs or not. Anyone have any experience with whether or not these new jugs on these M8s can be bored and honed?

What are your guy's thoughts and opinions based on the information provided?

Is it worth getting a second opinion from another friend at another shop?
 

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I'll try to explain as best I can. The measurements I'm talking about do not involve the bolts that hold down the shafts. What I am talking about involves bolting the shafts in the heads without push rods. In my case I then used feeler gauges to check and see how much of a gap there was between the posts that the rocker shafts bolt to and the rocker arm itself. Without the push rod the rocker arm will move side to side on the shaft a little bit. The more it can move the theory is the more noise it can make when pressure is put on it by the push rod trying to open the valves and when the valve spring then pushes back to close the valve. Even though we're talking thousands of an inch it all adds up and without a water jacket in the head for cooling any noise generated will be heard. For me it just bugs me when the bike starts up cold and is nice and quiet and then as it warms it starts making noises; nature of the beast I know.

Neil

So you are concerned with the clearance between the end of the rocker, and the inner sides of the rocker stands?

That is a real poor design. And no way to shim it as we could on the old rocker supports like the EVO and TC had.
 

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Update:

With the help of a friend that has a shop we started with a compression test. With the M8's you can run the test with or without the ACR(Automatic Compression Releases) on. We had the air cleaner off and we propped open the throttle valve as indicated in the HD service manual. With the ACRs ON(plugged in), minimum compression is 90 psi. Both cylinders tested well above spec. With ACRs OFF(unplugged), minimum compression is 175 psi. They both passed the test, but here is the funny part, and I think the schrader valve(valve core) on his compression tester is at fault and here is why. When we tested the front cylinder the tester bled off a little then stopped, the rear cylinder test bled off completely, the front cylinder on the second test also bled down like the rear cylinder did. There is no way that this can be an accurate test IMO. The compression tester gauge should hold the reading steady with no bleed down correct? It is not a leak down test nor were we performing one.

We took the rocker box covers off and rolled the motor over. Now this is the interesting part. We noticed that the rear cylinder exhaust valve rocker arms were worn in such a way that a full down pressure had very little contact with the valve. We also noticed some movement in the right side(sitting on the bike right) exhaust valve as if it was bent. We also looked at the side to side end play of the rocker arms and holy sh*t you could move those things by hand. If I remember correctly, and don't quote me but the end play on the service limit on the rocker arm end play is .025" and mine were at .014" which was within the specs. Sounds like a guy needs to get some shims made if that was the only thing that was causing the issue. I think the rocker arms side to side end play is probably an enormous part of the valve train noise I was hearing.

So he thinks it is a combination of rings and valves. I think the rings are fine but the rear head is toast you shouldn't be able to see actual side to side play with a valve. If it is bent then it contacted the piston and a that rate I concur on needing to do the jugs and pistons. Or at the very least pull the jugs and check them with a bore dial gauge, for taper, out of round and oversize, and see if it actually needs new jugs or not. Anyone have any experience with whether or not these new jugs on these M8s can be bored and honed?

What are your guy's thoughts and opinions based on the information provided?

Is it worth getting a second opinion from another friend at another shop?

If I read this correctly, the rocker tip is not aligned correctly with the exhaust valve tip? And it wore off to cause this? Did you happen to check the installed height on the valve stems? I'm wondering if the rocker was soft, or the valve was standing short and the lash beat the rocker tip to pieces.
 

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In my personal opinion, S&S premium lifters are the best money can buy, out a set in my 96 inch twin cam when a lifter took a shit at 11k been good since.
 

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In my personal opinion, S&S premium lifters are the best money can buy, out a set in my 96 inch twin cam when a lifter took a shit at 11k been good since.
Those are history now. The new tappet that replaces all of the others is the S&S Precision Tappet. No idea whats up with it, might be something new and improved, might be a new supplier, or might be another example of corona belt tightening.
 

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Discussion Starter #35 (Edited)
If I read this correctly, the rocker tip is not aligned correctly with the exhaust valve tip? And it wore off to cause this? Did you happen to check the installed height on the valve stems? I'm wondering if the rocker was soft, or the valve was standing short and the lash beat the rocker tip to pieces.
So you had several questions, the clearance between the rockers on the shaft and the mounts yes. There is all sorts of slap there, poor design...surprise from the moco....not at all.....

The rocker arms seem to be soft otherwise it wouldn't have worn the way it had. Harley would have had a better design which I've seen Screamin Eagle rocker arms and that have an adjustment for the exhaust valve rockers since it is such a long distance to travel and any lash or slack would cause uneven wear. If you've had the motors apart you will notice that the rocker arms are actually at a downward angle towards the valves which reside on the far left(left as sitting on the bike) of the head. In my honest opinion I don't know why they didn't just put rollers on the rocker arms to be honest. It is the cheapest looking set of rocker arms I have ever seen. TC motors had a better rocker assembly than the M8 by far! As far as the lash and gap between the rocker and the valve shaft. The furthest exhaust valve doesn't seem to have the same surface area contact as the first(closest to the right side of the bike) exhaust valve.

I'm having my other friend who builds motors take a second look at it and see what he thinks. He is of the opinion that there shouldn't be any side to side play in the rocker arms and the mounts at any time and that dead lifters would cause this to happen. I will keep y'all posted on what I find out.

Meanwhile, the ol lady says im getting expensive.....sh*t.....it's the one and only expensive hobby I have lol
 

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So you had several questions, the clearance between the rockers on the shaft and the mounts yes. There is all sorts of slap there, poor design...surprise from the moco....not at all.....

The rocker arms seem to be soft otherwise it wouldn't have worn the way it had. Harley would have had a better design which I've seen Screamin Eagle rocker arms and that have an adjustment for the exhaust valve rockers since it is such a long distance to travel and any lash or slack would cause uneven wear. If you've had the motors apart you will notice that the rocker arms are actually at a downward angle towards the valves which reside on the far left(left as sitting on the bike) of the head. In my honest opinion I don't know why they didn't just put rollers on the rocker arms to be honest. It is the cheapest looking set of rocker arms I have ever seen. TC motors had a better rocker assembly than the M8 by far! As far as the lash and gap between the rocker and the valve shaft. The furthest exhaust valve doesn't seem to have the same surface area contact as the first(closest to the right side of the bike) exhaust valve.

I'm having my other friend who builds motors take a second look at it and see what he thinks. He is of the opinion that there shouldn't be any side to side play in the rocker arms and the mounts at any time and that dead lifters would cause this to happen. I will keep y'all posted on what I find out.

Meanwhile, the ol lady says im getting expensive.....sh*t.....it's the one and only expensive hobby I have lol

Ya, I don't really see a good fix for the end play that wouldn't require some serious fitting in a machine shop.

I asked about the valve lash because it seems to be something the MoCo does not want to talk about. They came up with a rocker arm to fix it, but it seems like they don't use them. Once a motor is tapping loud enough to hear at idle, they seem to replace the head(s) or the whole engine.
 

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Discussion Starter #37
Ya, I don't really see a good fix for the end play that wouldn't require some serious fitting in a machine shop.

I asked about the valve lash because it seems to be something the MoCo does not want to talk about. They came up with a rocker arm to fix it, but it seems like they don't use them. Once a motor is tapping loud enough to hear at idle, they seem to replace the head(s) or the whole engine.
We couldn't slide the feeler gauge in between the rocker arm and the valve. If that answers your question and I don't recall off the top of my head what size feeler gauge we used. The actual harley manual states a maximum allowable lash is .008in and measurement is done "while holding rocker arm against valves, attempt to slide a feeler gauge between each valve stem tip and the rocker arm" then the next paragraph states the service limit, this is done after the lifters have bled down. Does that answer your question?
 

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We couldn't slide the feeler gauge in between the rocker arm and the valve. If that answers your question and I don't recall off the top of my head what size feeler gauge we used. The actual harley manual states a maximum allowable lash is .008in and measurement is done "while holding rocker arm against valves, attempt to slide a feeler gauge between each valve stem tip and the rocker arm" then the next paragraph states the service limit, this is done after the lifters have bled down. Does that answer your question?
Ya I'm good. On that lash measurement you would need to account for wear and or damage to the rocker tips. If the tip has a depression worn into it, and a lot of them do, you cant measure it correctly with a feeler gauge. Swapping on a good rocker is the easy way to get around it.

Back when car motors had solid tappets,rocker arm wear was an issue. The divots in the rocker tips would make them tap even when adjusted to the correct lash. We would grind the tips smooth again to fix it. But those rockers were good steel throughout, I doubt the M8 rockers have more than a few thousandth of hard surface on them. Build them soft and harden them afterwords is all the rage for cutting costs these days.
 

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Discussion Starter #39
Ya I'm good. On that lash measurement you would need to account for wear and or damage to the rocker tips. If the tip has a depression worn into it, and a lot of them do, you cant measure it correctly with a feeler gauge. Swapping on a good rocker is the easy way to get around it.

Back when car motors had solid tappets,rocker arm wear was an issue. The divots in the rocker tips would make them tap even when adjusted to the correct lash. We would grind the tips smooth again to fix it. But those rockers were good steel throughout, I doubt the M8 rockers have more than a few thousandth of hard surface on them. Build them soft and harden them afterwords is all the rage for cutting costs these days.
Scroll to the bottom of the link, looks like harley went and made the furthest exhaust valve adjustable on the SE rocker arms for the M8. This may be something to try!

Parts Catalog - M8 - Cams | Suburban Motors Harley-Davidson
 

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Ya they came out with those back in 17. Almost as soon as the M8 was released. So I suspect they had already seen the need in testing. At first they were campaign parts, then they were regular service parts for about a month, before they became SE parts. I think they were originally wanting to eliminate the chatter as much as they could with the new motor. But the loose valve seats forced them to just replace heads.
 
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