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I know there is a thread about voiding your warranty, but I have an interesting note to the story

I took my 19 in to get a flip key fob programmed, as well as the Oil cooler fan activated last saturday.

Before the tech would even work on the bike he asked for my tuner (which was mounted to the nacelle in front of him lol)
For some reason my original tune was not saved to the PV itself. He said if I had the original tune on the PV, he could re flash it to the bike,
then erase the ECM and then hook it to the Digital Technician and harley wouldnt have known that it was ever flashed by a non harley tuner.

I asked if the Tuner left traces in the ECM, he said it does, but not if he erased the ECM before connecting to the DT. He claimed that if questioned he could note driveability concerns that required erasing the ECM.

I found this very interesting and wanted to share this with everyone because like most of you, I was told once tuned, a tuner could always be detected, but that seems to not be the case. (unless a tech here on the forum has contrary info)

Well my 2019 Warranty was officially voided 4-20-19. 7 months after purchase. (yes i knew i would be voiding my warranty when i brought it in, but I wanted it to be an official middle finger to Harley anyways so.....yeah)

How many of you have officially voided your warranty?
 

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So once again an uniformed rider blames HD for what the EPA has forced them to do. Get it right it is Not HD doing it. Harley has no options the power of the EPA has come down on them. They decided to use Harley as an example to others. This has been over 10 years coming HD is not the first. Stick around it will get worst.
 

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So I'm reading that your warranty DID in fact get voided because of the aftermarket tuner? From my knowledge even if it's erased it can still be seen. Nothing is ever completely erased, it just gets stuffed into crevices of the computer that most people don't know how to get to.
 

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So I'm reading that your warranty DID in fact get voided because of the aftermarket tuner? From my knowledge even if it's erased it can still be seen. Nothing is ever completely erased, it just gets stuffed into crevices of the computer that most people don't know how to get to.
In a Windows computer yes, because deleting a file in Windows actually just renames it to something that the shell ignores and the data can sit there for years if that part of the drive is never reused. But this kind of extra space is not available in an ECM. It only has enough room for what it needs to hold (usual cost driven kind of thing), so when it is overwritten it is done so directly over the old data leaving virtually no chance for recovery. There may be theoretical options for recovering part of it in a lab...but that's way past what a dealer - or any computer shop - could even dream of pulling off.


I am however rather curious about why - apparently - the dealer didn't (/doesn't/cant?) have a copy of the OEM base tune available to reapply...in case of the odd emergency.
 

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In a Windows computer yes, because deleting a file in Windows actually just renames it to something that the shell ignores and the data can sit there for years if that part of the drive is never reused. But this kind of extra space is not available in an ECM. It only has enough room for what it needs to hold (usual cost driven kind of thing), so when it is overwritten it is done so directly over the old data leaving virtually no chance for recovery. There may be theoretical options for recovering part of it in a lab...but that's way past what a dealer - or any computer shop - could even dream of pulling off.
A little further on this topic. The "flash" is written to non-volatile memory inside the ECM. Most every ECM has three different types of memory inside; read only, random access and programmable read only memory. It's likely that the factory tune, as well as any subsequent flash tune is written to the programmable read only memory. The thinking here is that the PROM contains the all critical information concerning the bikes' operation; engine type, transmission, FAR, gear position & axle ratio, throttle position, emissions, timing etc. Basically all of the preset parameters that the ECM would use to make "intelligent" performance and operations decisions based on the input from the various sensors on the bike. You can't really create a hard partition on a memory module without an operating system of some sorts. Flashing a memory module is a destructive process, meaning that it wipes the entire piece of silicon clean with a micro amount of voltage and presents a "blank slate" available to overwrite. This process could possibly include a time stamp stored in a different area of memory or a different type of onboard memory. That could possibly be the give-away that something happened to the ECM, but I agree with Stoic. It would take a forensic data recovery expert to determine what was previously flashed to the memory (unless a copy is being written or time stamp recorded on another piece of memory inside the ECM.)
 

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Well my 2019 Warranty was officially voided 4-20-19. 7 months after purchase. (yes i knew i would be voiding my warranty when i brought it in, but I wanted it to be an official middle finger to Harley anyways so.....yeah)
I see voiding the warranty as doing Harley a favor by letting them off the hook for costly repairs- not giving them the finger.
 

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So once again an uniformed rider blames HD for what the EPA has forced them to do. Get it right it is Not HD doing it. Harley has no options the power of the EPA has come down on them. They decided to use Harley as an example to others. This has been over 10 years coming HD is not the first. Stick around it will get worst.
So, the EPA is forcing Harley to void warranties? Seems to me that would be Harley's decision.
 

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So once again an uniformed rider blames HD for what the EPA has forced them to do. Get it right it is Not HD doing it. Harley has no options the power of the EPA has come down on them. They decided to use Harley as an example to others. This has been over 10 years coming HD is not the first. Stick around it will get worst.

Smitty, did you post this BEFORE you had had a chance to have your morning coffee?

"... an uninformed rider", and "Get it right, it is NOT HD doing it"

Please go back and read the original post again. No where in it does the poster blame HD for anything, he was just stating the facts about having your warranty voided, and that there's possibly a way to avoid that happening by over-riding the ECM memory so it leaves no tell tale sign behind that it's had another tuning code it it. He was not being "uninformed", in fact I'd guess that he now knows more about that situation than 98% of us on here. The way I read it, he was simply telling us that based on what the tech told him, that there might be a 'work around' on the whole tuning issue, and he was simply looking for anyone in the know who could verify (or dispute) what the tech had told him. Reach inside your pill box and find one that says "Chill" on it. :wink:
 

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I had this same experience. I flashed my ECM back to stock, but the HD computer overlords still detected it. However, the warranty is not actually officially voided. The ECM is "flagged." This means HD can deny warranty claims, but ONLY for powertrain items. Radio, gps, speakers, power locks(CVO's) etc are all still covered, and they can't deny coverage to those, unless they can prove my PV caused my 7th saddlebag speaker to blow. (Yes, I've replaced 6, 3 each side, all under warranty. The most recent has an A after the part number, so my service guy thinks they may have fixed the issue with them blowing. I'll take their free speakers till their not covered then upgrade)

Additionally, they also have to prove that the aftermarket parts caused the failure. While fighting this may be an uphill battle, it is still a fight that may be worth having if your service manager is on your side.

Anyway, my dealer sold me a Zurich aftermarket warranty that kicks in in October when my factory expires. I've already used it for a new rear tire and was happy with the service. And they don't care about my Powervision.

Just my two cents.
 

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In a Windows computer yes, because deleting a file in Windows actually just renames it to something that the shell ignores and the data can sit there for years if that part of the drive is never reused. But this kind of extra space is not available in an ECM. It only has enough room for what it needs to hold (usual cost driven kind of thing), so when it is overwritten it is done so directly over the old data leaving virtually no chance for recovery. There may be theoretical options for recovering part of it in a lab...but that's way past what a dealer - or any computer shop - could even dream of pulling off.


I am however rather curious about why - apparently - the dealer didn't (/doesn't/cant?) have a copy of the OEM base tune available to reapply...in case of the odd emergency.
Yeah, you'd think Harley has a few IT people, this isnt rocket science and its not like they need too much space, They should have the original ecm tune , because if a law suit comes there way they can use that data against you or the insurnce company
 

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... Flashing a memory module is a destructive process, meaning that it wipes the entire piece of silicon clean with a micro amount of voltage and presents a "blank slate" available to overwrite. This process could possibly include a time stamp stored in a different area of memory or a different type of onboard memory. ....
Flashing by the digital technician (DT) does not over write every last bit sequence on the EPROM (as you point out in your explanations). It only over writes areas where it has permissions to do so. The DT and the ECM all come from the mother ship and they control things at the lowest level that a customer facing technician will never be able to reach. Hardening ECMs to monkey business is nothing new. Any of us who have flashed our ECMS in our autos (looking at you APR) know the joy of seeing our warranties black listed when they download the data and see the "Last Tuned by" flag set to something other than OEM. This is one of the chief selling points of 'piggy back' devices, although I don't know if any exist for the M8 as of yet...I haven't looked either. Having watched this over the years form the sports car side, I've concluded that the fear and hand wringing are usually much worse than reality. Sure, some people get caught when they take things too far. But most tunes have enough of a safety factor built in that usually something else breaks before the engine gets over boosted and real damage occurs. Unless super tunes and supra-OEM levels of performance are what you're after. Then even spending a second worrying about your warranty is a second too long, IMHO.
 
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