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Originally I would have agreed with it's Harley's decision to void the warranty but I stand corrected.

I am one of those weird people who look for documentation :nerd:, but this is more of an FYI for all about EPA forcing Harley to Void warranty which is actually a true statement, however unfortunately this is just documentation I found on the EPA website. Crazy stuff man :surprise:, if I am wrong some one please put it out.

Guess I won't really be doing any engine mods if I ever buy another....

my bad if this is kinda beating a dead horse.

https://www.epa.gov/sites/production/files/2017-12/documents/harleydavidson-cd.pdf

14
.
Denial of Warranty.
a.
Defendants shall deny all warranty claims for functional defects of powertrain components for any Harley-Davidson vehicle (Model
Year 2017 or later) registered in the United States, if any Defendants have any information to show that such vehicle was tuned
using a Tuning Product that was not covered by a California ARB Executive Order or otherwise 7 Case 1:16-cv-01687-EGS Document 6-1 Filed 07/20/17 Page 9 of 33
approved by EPA.
 

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In a Windows computer yes, because deleting a file in Windows actually just renames it to something that the shell ignores and the data can sit there for years if that part of the drive is never reused. But this kind of extra space is not available in an ECM. It only has enough room for what it needs to hold (usual cost driven kind of thing), so when it is overwritten it is done so directly over the old data leaving virtually no chance for recovery. There may be theoretical options for recovering part of it in a lab...but that's way past what a dealer - or any computer shop - could even dream of pulling off.

I am however rather curious about why - apparently - the dealer didn't (/doesn't/cant?) have a copy of the OEM base tune available to reapply...in case of the odd emergency.
This has exactly zero to do with why it can still be detected even if you put the stock tune back on.
 

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I may be wrong but the way I'm reading it he is not claiming that. He is just splaining how the windows system works and how it's different than how the ECM works.
Just re-read, you're probably right. But I would also say his theory about available space on the ECM is similarly not fact-based. Simply having a "copy" of the original tune is not sufficient. Many tuners have the ability to back up and restore the original tune, and the fact that this has been done (backed up or restored from backup) is detectable by the motor company.

I would be surprised that local dealers have the ability to restore the original tune in a way that preserves the factory warranty without permission/knowledge of the motor company. Its easy to design a system that works this way, and based on other things that are demonstrably true about restoring the original map and that fact still being detected leads me to be fairly certain that this is in fact designed to prevent such monkey business.
 

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I know there is a thread about voiding your warranty, but I have an interesting note to the story

I took my 19 in to get a flip key fob programmed, as well as the Oil cooler fan activated last saturday.

Before the tech would even work on the bike he asked for my tuner (which was mounted to the nacelle in front of him lol)
For some reason my original tune was not saved to the PV itself. He said if I had the original tune on the PV, he could re flash it to the bike,
then erase the ECM and then hook it to the Digital Technician and harley wouldnt have known that it was ever flashed by a non harley tuner.

I asked if the Tuner left traces in the ECM, he said it does, but not if he erased the ECM before connecting to the DT. He claimed that if questioned he could note driveability concerns that required erasing the ECM.

I found this very interesting and wanted to share this with everyone because like most of you, I was told once tuned, a tuner could always be detected, but that seems to not be the case. (unless a tech here on the forum has contrary info)

Well my 2019 Warranty was officially voided 4-20-19. 7 months after purchase. (yes i knew i would be voiding my warranty when i brought it in, but I wanted it to be an official middle finger to Harley anyways so.....yeah)

How many of you have officially voided your warranty?
I have a question. Is fan controlled by bcm or ecm?
 

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This has exactly zero to do with why it can still be detected even if you put the stock tune back on.
You think they are really that slow and uninformed over at the EPA? That would be like the biggest loophole anyone ever wrote into a settlement. And the EPA already saw something like that back in the nineties were a company was selling an automotive tuner that could be switched back to the original tune with the push of a button, so they could pass emissions tests. And we just had VW with software that switched the tune every time it was connected to diagnostic equipment.

At this point, I'm thinking spare ecm might be a work around. That way you can keep the original ecm free of any flags. Might have to tell a fib to get the replacement one setup for your scooter. Something like "it was stolen" or "I took it off to clean it and it got lost", or even, "my dog ate it". But someone will need to test it out. Someone with a 17 already out of warranty and a few hundred laying around. Should be able to grab an ecm from a wreck.

Speaking of the EPA, did you all see Ford's admission today. They say they might have "unintentionally" cheated on their certification process by miscalculating weights. The dyno mass just accidently lost some weight.
 

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You think they are really that slow and uninformed over at the EPA? That would be like the biggest loophole anyone ever wrote into a settlement.
Um, no I don't but what makes you think I think that? And I dont think it has anything directly to do with the EPA, its about Harley's technology and process. Motivated by the EPA? Sure
 

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Just re-read, you're probably right. But I would also say his theory about available space on the ECM is similarly not fact-based. Simply having a "copy" of the original tune is not sufficient. Many tuners have the ability to back up and restore the original tune, and the fact that this has been done (backed up or restored from backup) is detectable by the motor company.

I would be surprised that local dealers have the ability to restore the original tune in a way that preserves the factory warranty without permission/knowledge of the motor company. Its easy to design a system that works this way, and based on other things that are demonstrably true about restoring the original map and that fact still being detected leads me to be fairly certain that this is in fact designed to prevent such monkey business.
The ecm records events, without a lot of detail. It knows a tuner was in the system, and when it was there. But not what tuner it was or what tune was used. And when a MoCo tuns is flashed in, it just sets a check bit and records the identifier for that tune. And it keeps a permanent history of revisions. Even aftermarket ecms do that, it helps with the diagnostics when they go balls up. The tune itself resides in another area of the memory. As I understand it, there is space for more than one tune in the oem memory. But multiple tunes are not enabled on Harleys. Other scooters make use of two or more tunes. Also, this tuner does a lot of self testing while the vehicle is in operation. Like a momentary increase in fuel pulse just to check O2 response.

Be assured, it will get worse. Next up will be the down stream 02 sensor, to make sure the Cats don just burn away or fall out, or get eaten by gremlins, or whatever causes them to disappear.
 

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You think they are really that slow and uninformed over at the EPA? That would be like the biggest loophole anyone ever wrote into a settlement. And the EPA already saw something like that back in the nineties were a company was selling an automotive tuner that could be switched back to the original tune with the push of a button, so they could pass emissions tests. And we just had VW with software that switched the tune every time it was connected to diagnostic equipment.

At this point, I'm thinking spare ecm might be a work around. That way you can keep the original ecm free of any flags. Might have to tell a fib to get the replacement one setup for your scooter. Something like "it was stolen" or "I took it off to clean it and it got lost", or even, "my dog ate it". But someone will need to test it out. Someone with a 17 already out of warranty and a few hundred laying around. Should be able to grab an ecm from a wreck.

Speaking of the EPA, did you all see Ford's admission today. They say they might have "unintentionally" cheated on their certification process by miscalculating weights. The dyno mass just accidently lost some weight.
Are the ecm's interchangeable within identical model years ? Will it throw up a red flag if plugged in at the dealership?
I guess you would have to gamble on a used one. No way of knowing if it was flashed ,unless you got a look at the bike. I would assume a bike with stock slip-ons would probably be okay.
 

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Are the ecm's interchangeable within identical model years ? Will it throw up a red flag if plugged in at the dealership?
I guess you would have to gamble on a used one. No way of knowing if it was flashed ,unless you got a look at the bike. I would assume a bike with stock slip-ons would probably be okay.
ECM displays VIN number. I do know they have to flash the ECM if you buy a new one. I have considered switching my ECM to a trike ECM . parts and labor about $350.
 

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Are the ecm's interchangeable within identical model years ? Will it throw up a red flag if plugged in at the dealership?
I guess you would have to gamble on a used one. No way of knowing if it was flashed ,unless you got a look at the bike. I would assume a bike with stock slip-ons would probably be okay.
The ecm is more or less universal within model years. Perhaps even across some years. But it need to by keyed to the vin and then flashed to the needs of that scooter. But you can take it off of the scooter, and it will go back on the same scooter with no intervention from the dealer. Prolly takes note of the disconnect, but there are a lot of reasons that could happen.
 

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Originally I would have agreed with it's Harley's decision to void the warranty but I stand corrected.

I am one of those weird people who look for documentation :nerd:, but this is more of an FYI for all about EPA forcing Harley to Void warranty which is actually a true statement, however unfortunately this is just documentation I found on the EPA website. Crazy stuff man :surprise:, if I am wrong some one please put it out.

Guess I won't really be doing any engine mods if I ever buy another....

my bad if this is kinda beating a dead horse.

https://www.epa.gov/sites/production/files/2017-12/documents/harleydavidson-cd.pdf

14
.
Denial of Warranty.
a.
Defendants shall deny all warranty claims for functional defects of powertrain components for any Harley-Davidson vehicle (Model
Year 2017 or later) registered in the United States, if any Defendants have any information to show that such vehicle was tuned
using a Tuning Product that was not covered by a California ARB Executive Order or otherwise 7 Case 1:16-cv-01687-EGS Document 6-1 Filed 07/20/17 Page 9 of 33
approved by EPA.
Great find. Thanks for the info. I was gonna start poking around for such documentation myself, appreciate You saving us all the trouble.

Man, Our Government Sucks!
 

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We all bitch about the EPA. But without it you wouldn't be able to see half a mile in most cities.

Anyone remember LA or NYC in the 60's. Even sunny days were overcast. And that was with just a 1/4 of the vehicles on the road today.

You would go out and warm your 60's car up in the winter, and by the time you got the garage door open your eyes were watering.

How bout those cars they sold, late 70's up into the 90's. Some of them ran awful.

Ya we bitch when it impacts us directly, but the alternative would be worse.
 

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Be assured, it will get worse. Next up will be the down stream 02 sensor, to make sure the Cats don just burn away or fall out, or get eaten by gremlins, or whatever causes them to disappear.
I'm pretty sure it was the dog that ate mine. Thanks for adding some current professional knowledge to the discussion. Thanks for explaining a high tech issue (for most of us) in a manner that even us simple minded reprobates can understand.
 

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I'm pretty sure it was the dog that ate mine. Thanks for adding some current professional knowledge to the discussion. Thanks for explaining a high tech issue (for most of us) in a manner that even us simple minded reprobates can understand.
What the hell is a reprobate?:grin: More stuff I don't understand in this thread!:smile:
 
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