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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Not sure where this belongs but thought many audio guys have lithium.

I'm aware you are meant to use a lithium charger for lithium batterys that's fine I have a noco for that. But lithiums have a higher charge voltage so would it be ok to use a standard charger to take it to AGM voltage levels.

Only asking as my dealership often puts bikes on tenders when there, mine also has CVO ignition mod, so last time they left keys in dash and I got a flat batt.
 

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Not sure where this belongs but thought many audio guys have lithium.

I'm aware you are meant to use a lithium charger for lithium batterys that's fine I have a noco for that. But lithiums have a higher charge voltage so would it be ok to use a standard charger to take it to AGM voltage levels.

Only asking as my dealership often puts bikes on tenders when there, mine also has CVO ignition mod, so last time they left keys in dash and I got a flat batt.
I would never put a standard charger on a lithium battery.
 

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The older and now cheaper Lithium batteries require a special charger.

The new high end lithium batteries have Battery Management Systems built into the battery. Check and see if your’s has the BMS.
 

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Charging Li batteries on a regular charger is asking for a fire. With lead acid batteries, the charger uses the battery voltage to regulate the charge. And that voltage is high enough to cause Li batteries to overheat and burn.
 

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Lithium Batteries take special Lithium Battery Tenders and Chargers. That being said, You can use a standard charger to start a Lithium Battery powered vehicle but then must remove it.
Mike U.
 

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What is the CVO ignition mod?
 

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I believe it does away with the Ignition Switch and allows you to start the Bike with the FOB and turning on the Handlebar Switch to Run.
Mike U.
To stand corrected, You would put the Run switch to Run and hit the Handlebar Starter Switch and the Bike will start.
Mike U.
 

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Lithium Batteries take special Lithium Battery Tenders and Chargers. That being said, You can use a standard charger to start a Lithium Battery powered vehicle but then must remove it.
Mike U.
I would never put a standard charger on a lithium battery.
Charging Li batteries on a regular charger is asking for a fire. With lead acid batteries, the charger uses the battery voltage to regulate the charge. And that voltage is high enough to cause Li batteries to overheat and burn.
Ok guys, then tell me how the motorcycle charging system that is designed for lead acid batteries doesn’t do the same thing to a lithium battery?
 

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You can change any of the newer ones to switch-less if you want. I do not understand why. I hooked centurion up and went through the steps to do it just because.
 

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So I see a bunch of misinformation here. I will step in and qualify my information that saying I build and fly electric powered aircraft that use Lithium batteries and have for a very long time.

1) A battery see's voltage and current, a standard charger and a Lithium charger do not differ there.
2) Lithium batteries are built up of many cells run in both series and parallel. Each Lithium cell runs between 3.0 and 4.2 volts where 4.2 is a fully charged cell.
3) Where the chargers differ is if the battery has hook ups for individual cells to 'balance' the battery. The goal to keeping a healthy Lithium battery is keeping cell voltages as closely matching as possible across both charge and discharge cycles. You can charge individual cells of a Lithium battery if they have a balance connecter. An example of this would be to look at a Lithium power tool battery. You won't see a positive and negative connection. Typically you will have 5 connections, to allow the chargers to balance individual cells across the charging cycle.
4) Current Lithiums are different - The newest breed of Lithium batteries use a Battery Management System which was mentioned above. The BMS takes the voltage from your charger or regulator and then disperses it amongst the individual cells keeping them balanced. You could hook up a standard charger to a new Lithium and be just fine.

CAVEAT!!! - Your Lithium battery will typically Charge to a higher voltage then a 12v lead acid battery which tops out around 13.5 volts. For this reason your standard trickle charger when hooked up will not permit the Lithium to be charged to full capacity. That actually works out for the better as the healthiest storage level for a Lithium battery is actually around 3.5-3.8 volts per cell, not a fully charged 4.2v. My advice if you are having Harley store your bike would be to contact the manufacturer of your battery and ask them for best practices. They will tell you how best to store their product.
 

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Ok guys, then tell me how the motorcycle charging system that is designed for lead acid batteries doesn’t do the same thing to a lithium battery?
Apples and oranges. The charging system on your vehicle is set to a maximum of 14.x volts with the regulator, to let the battery provide years of service. As the volts come up, the amps fall off. Shop type battery chargers just let the battery decide what the maximum voltage is. You set it to 30 amps, and it charges 30 amps. This charges the battery rapidly, but also reduces the life span. One of the charging tests done with a shop charger is to see if the battery exceeds 17 volts under a 30 amp charge. And while [email protected] amps just means the lead battery is sulfated and in need of service, it does nothing more than boil the hell out of the juice. If that Li battery runs up to 17, and it probably will, you are going to make a lot of heat, and swell the cells up. Then you get that fire that you cant put water on.

In a nutshell, the maximum charge voltage for a lead 12 volt is too high for a Li 12 volt. Most shop chargers will go past 18 volts. The charging system in your vehicle is not intended for charging dead batteries. It is set up to just maintain the battery at operating voltage of 14.x.

And this is why you should always charge a new battery on a shop charger before installing it in your vehicle. The vehicle charging system will basically shut down when the battery reaches 80-85% charge. It will eventually reach full charge, but it takes a long time because a voltage higher than 14.x is needed to charge lead acid efficiently.

With the above said, AGM's are another animal entirely. And that's why a quality shop charger will have an AGM setting. AGM's aren't voltage sensitive like Li, but they are amp sensitive. And as such should not be recharged from dead as rapidly as regular lead batteries.

If you want to do some dangerous fun and games, carefully open a Li cell and take the lithium ribbon out of it. Then drop it in a bucket of water. Be aware, mostly it just catches on fire and burns, but sometimes it will actually explode.
 

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Apples and oranges. The charging system on your vehicle is set to a maximum of 14.x volts with the regulator, to let the battery provide years of service. As the volts come up, the amps fall off. Shop type battery chargers just let the battery decide what the maximum voltage is. You set it to 30 amps, and it charges 30 amps. This charges the battery rapidly, but also reduces the life span. One of the charging tests done with a shop charger is to see if the battery exceeds 17 volts under a 30 amp charge. And while [email protected] amps just means the lead battery is sulfated and in need of service, it does nothing more than boil the hell out of the juice. If that Li battery runs up to 17, and it probably will, you are going to make a lot of heat, and swell the cells up. Then you get that fire that you cant put water on.

In a nutshell, the maximum charge voltage for a lead 12 volt is too high for a Li 12 volt. Most shop chargers will go past 18 volts. The charging system in your vehicle is not intended for charging dead batteries. It is set up to just maintain the battery at operating voltage of 14.x.

And this is why you should always charge a new battery on a shop charger before installing it in your vehicle. The vehicle charging system will basically shut down when the battery reaches 80-85% charge. It will eventually reach full charge, but it takes a long time because a voltage higher than 14.x is needed to charge lead acid efficiently.

With the above said, AGM's are another animal entirely. And that's why a quality shop charger will have an AGM setting. AGM's aren't voltage sensitive like Li, but they are amp sensitive. And as such should not be recharged from dead as rapidly as regular lead batteries.

If you want to do some dangerous fun and games, carefully open a Li cell and take the lithium ribbon out of it. Then drop it in a bucket of water. Be aware, mostly it just catches on fire and burns, but sometimes it will actually explode.
Again thanks for the information on shop chargers. Who uses a shop charger to maintain their batteries between rides though? I use a battery maintainer as do most people who leave a bike parked between rides. So, is my maintainer apples and oranges to the bikes charging system?
 

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My question is, in today's world there are three different types of batteries, 1.lead acid 2. AGM and 3. Lithium.
I have an Optima battery charger, that is specifically made for lead batteries and a AGM's only.
Lithium batteries have come a long way in a short time, with that said I happen to have a lithium battery in my motorcycle, and we can use my lithium battery as an example, when I purchased that battery I considered buying a lithium charger, the more I thought about it the more I talk myself out of it, simply because the battery that I have has a "battery management system" wich switches itself to off, when the voltage drops to a certain level, allowing the battery to have enough charge to start the bike!!!
My battery takes it to another level, with a restart button just in case you leave the lights on, or stereo blaring. Hit the restart button your back in business..
Lead acid batteries are on their way out, agms have nothing to do with lithium,
I am a big fan of agms, If taken car of properly it is not unreasonable to get 7 or 8 years out of one, my Optima has been in my Avalanche since 2015...
I decided to switch from an AGM to a Lithium on my Road Glide, the reasons were my agm still required a jump start even when I accidentally forgot to turn the ignition key off, went inside got some food come back out holy shit the lights are still on but dimly, cross your fingers, and ten Hail Marys, hoping the Bike Will start, that got old and I refused to buy a new agm on the premises that it could still run dead, and would need a jump start. I'm bad about leaving the key on that's all there is to it, sometimes I forget how long I've been playing the stereo, all the scenarios are usually my fault in some way, to me the lithium battery was the answer. And so far it has been better than advertised, literally playing the stereo in for a long minute. Rapid recharge time is crazy fast...
So why would you need a lithium charger???
The only answer is you have a outdated lithium battery.....

Just sayin
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
Ok why the CVO mod cause ive left the ignition switch on a few times, the new softatils (i have a lowrider s) works exactly the same time walk up to bike with a fob and start the bike. Dash switch does nothing. Having key next to bike puts it in standby and uses more battery power as would happen at dealership.

I have a Lithium charge rits just what happens in an emergency or at the dealership. Im aware that lithium will handle more volts so in theory an AGM charger would not fully charge the battery however it would not harm it. But im not sure if AGM chargers puke higher voltages/currents.

I do run a small adapter to go from harleys SAE connector to the norco one so may just put a tag on that saying lithium battery installed.

I do have 2 bikes so its common for me not to touch either one for a few weeks at a time depending on my mood.
 

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Again thanks for the information on shop chargers. Who uses a shop charger to maintain their batteries between rides though? I use a battery maintainer as do most people who leave a bike parked between rides. So, is my maintainer apples and oranges to the bikes charging system?
Maintainers (tenders) come in both flavors too. Mine has to be set to the type of battery. From what I have been able to glean from the volumes technical data is that on Li it does not run the conditioning cycle, not exactly sure what that is, but it is supposed to make a lead battery last longer. And if I forget and charge one of the lead batteries with it set to Li, it tops out at 13.5 instead of 14.6.

Now just to make it more confusing, if you have a smart charger, then Li charging is really different. When set to Li, a smart charger will start out with low amps, then after the battery reaches about 9 volts it will go to full charge until the battery gets to about 13 volts, then it will drop back and top it off with a low charge rate. My 30 amp SC will put about 8 amps to the Li battery starting out. Then go to the full 30 amps, and then drop back to about 8 amps to finish the charge. With a lead battery, it starts out at 30 amps, then drops back as the voltage comes up.

As for tending with the shop charger, that's a function of how many scooters you have vs how many chargers you have. I have used my smart charger to top off the Li battery while the two tenders I have were at work on lead batteries. But then I'm a scooter addict with hardly any room to stand in the shop because of the scooters. My smart charger will charge/tend two battery's at a time if I want it to, but both have to be the same type of battery. So far, I have not felt the need to do that. The max amps is still 30, so it would be split between the two battery's you were charging.
 

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Ok why the CVO mod cause ive left the ignition switch on a few times, the new softatils (i have a lowrider s) works exactly the same time walk up to bike with a fob and start the bike. Dash switch does nothing. Having key next to bike puts it in standby and uses more battery power as would happen at dealership.

I have a Lithium charge rits just what happens in an emergency or at the dealership. Im aware that lithium will handle more volts so in theory an AGM charger would not fully charge the battery however it would not harm it. But im not sure if AGM chargers puke higher voltages/currents.

I do run a small adapter to go from harleys SAE connector to the norco one so may just put a tag on that saying lithium battery installed.

I do have 2 bikes so its common for me not to touch either one for a few weeks at a time depending on my mood.
The ignition (keyed) switch on these newer can bus scooters is not really a switch in the sense that it carries no load. It just sends a signal to the bcm as to what position it's in.

Pretty easy to bypass it in the BCM settings.

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