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How many times do you need to read and write the learned settings?

There must be a point when its pretty much done "learning".

Any insight would be appreciated
 

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depends on how close the base map was, and how you ride. If you slowly go through the gears building rpm slowly it will have a chance to sample more data than just riding normally.
I can't say there u=is a certain amount of time or rides then it will be tuned, but you should see it logging less changes to your base map when you get close.
Also if you ride up into the mountains and then back down to your normal riding area you'll see changes for altitude but this is just keeping the bike running good in the altitude not something you have to auto map.
Hope this may help as I'm learning my way around the T-max system myself.
 

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Thundermax dial in time

I was doing read and remap after short trips and I saw little changes. Last weekend I did a about 200 miles with single and two up riding, higher elevations too and I ran the update and it made a big difference.

My take... run a few longer trips with varied styles of riding to push the system to run at as many different ride types as possible.

Made a difference for me. I still had to retard the timing to rid myself of the pinging under heavy loads. Almost all gone but I still have some adjustments to go on that.

Best of luck
HUTMO
 

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I was doing read and remap after short trips and I saw little changes. Last weekend I did a about 200 miles with single and two up riding, higher elevations too and I ran the update and it made a big difference.

My take... run a few longer trips with varied styles of riding to push the system to run at as many different ride types as possible.

Made a difference for me. I still had to retard the timing to rid myself of the pinging under heavy loads. Almost all gone but I still have some adjustments to go on that.

Best of luck
HUTMO
Friend looking to by a TMAX. Does this unit auto adjust on the fly or does one have to flash the ECU after datalogging?

Does it not learn timing and adjust automatically, or are you just fine tuning?
 

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They dial in better starting on the rich side and learning to lean out. Nice tuner but still lacks IMO if you're fortunate enlighten to have someone near you that will use something like a TTS MasterTune instead. The things I don't care for about the TMax is email correspondence (not that a dyno operator like our shop has that measures actual power at all throttle adjustability points, they are not capable of pulling timing if you get a bad tank of fuel, they're not exactly a cheap product, and they don't have some of the nice fluff tables that really make a tune shine such as throttle progressivity etc. and last but certainly not least, they are only targeting a predetermined AFR. That Afros not necessarily where that bike performs best and the power is linear the ought the rpm range as it should be if tune right. One last thing, I prefer to rely on more than just one reading (oxygen) and a strain gauge to measure power in real time that shoot for a target AFR. Nearly every bike on the planet has reversion at some point in it's rpm range depending on exhaust, head ports, cam timing events length of pipe etc and when reversion occurs, the oxygen reading is skewed and will falsely tell the operator to add fuel. Is it's already too rich there to begin with, power will decrease with the rich condition.

There's 20.9% oxygen in the air we breathe. There's no CO (carbon monoxide) which are molecules of partially burned O2 and HC (Hydrocarbons) which is gasoline. Have readings of HC, CO, CO2 (completely burned oxygen and hydrocarbons) works great in the classroom but if you ever riddent a stock bike with a cat in the exhaust, you know they suck for the real world. The term used for this completely burned up mixture of HC's and O2's that works in the classroom and perhaps liquid cooled variable valve timing motors, sucks big time for out V-Twins. It creates heat, lazy throttle response, low power, heat and more heat which happens to be the enemy of an air cooled motor. Having 4 gas and a live reading of measured HP and TQ (not a calculation that is one size fits all for parasitic losses whether you're tuning a 50 cc dirt bike or a big V8 chopper with a 300 mm rear tire and a billet wheel that outweighs the entire 50 cc dirt bike doesn't seem nearly as up to snuff as some of the tuning modules are getting. Understand combustion chemistry is just the first step to executing a seamless tune. Standing and holding the throttle until a "safe" AFR is achieved is not much of a tuner in my book. Especially since the same AFR can be achieved by retarding the timing and taking fuel out or advancing timing and adding fuel with that advanced timing. 4 gas a da love reading measured with a strain gauge takes the guess work out and you can rest assured your bike runs to it's best potential for the components it has on it. There's no guess work, it tell you what to do with the timing and fuel and some bikes more or less than another but you have a live reading of power so kinda hard to screw that up.
 

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I can't argue with all your smog BS but I don't think you are as knowledgeable about the T-max as you think you are.

and last but certainly not least, they are only targeting a predetermined AFR. That Afros not necessarily where that bike performs best and the power is linear the ought the rpm range as it should be if tune right.

You can set the T-max to hit any AFR you want at any RPM and at any throttle setting. As for your fluff adjustments on the TTS well, everyone has there own opinion and like they say, most stink.
 

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I've toured the TMax facility, I've been formally trained by them and I'm an authorized dealer for them. What makes you think an O2 sensor with one reading of many by products that all internal combustion engines emit is better than having 4 or 5 readings that a gas analyzer sees? The fact is, it can't and if 4/5 gas tuning wasn't more thorough and also tell the operator where timing is making best power, why does Moto GP and Formula 1 use gas analyzers to tune with? Yes, you're right, you can change the target AFR in a TMax but until you measure power with a strain gauge rather than an algorithm (mathematical equation) that uses the same formula for parasitic drivetrain loss on 50 cc dirt bike that it uses for a boss hoss with a 502 big block and a 300 mm tire, how can the algorithm be correct for every situation? As it's been said before, the best you know is the best you've ever had, not necessarily the best.
 

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Keep the info coming, but I must admit, I'm kind of lost with the terminology. All I do is ride it, plug it up, check for codes, preform a diagnostic and either press auto tune or not, then save it. I do not have no more knowledge than that. So, with your experience and knowledge, is they TMax worth it or is it better to get it tuned by a tuner/dyno? Thx.


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Well, I'll add this, the TMax facility uses a 4 gas analyzer to help develop maps but as everyone should know, even identical bikes with identical components will have variances in the MAP to have best efficiency and make peak power and all things being the same 9 times out of 10, if both riders ride equally effective in a race, one of those 2 bikes is going to win 9 out of 10 races. Things like quench, deck height, port matching, core shift on the heads, ring seal, etc. are just a small portion or what will make the difference in why the 1 bike always outruns the other. Not to mention the tune and making peak power.

I'm not ripping on TMax. But I do like to tune them on a dyno with a strain gauge (measuring power instead of timing how fast a bike can spool up a drum) and a gas analyzer to find where each setting is burning optimally so the O2 sensors are adjusted to target whatever AFR that particular bike seems to like best. Finding peak power by timing how fast you spool up a drum is absurd to me. Tire temps and swelling, combustion chamber temps, oil viscosity, belt tension, bias ply tire or radial tire, spoke wheel versus heavy mag wheel, trans oil viscosity, primary oil, etc., etc., etc., all play a part in how fast the drum spools up.
 

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Keep the info coming, but I must admit, I'm kind of lost with the terminology. All I do is ride it, plug it up, check for codes, preform a diagnostic and either press auto tune or not, then save it. I do not have no more knowledge than that. So, with your experience and knowledge, is they TMax worth it or is it better to get it tuned by a tuner/dyno? Thx.


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Indy#1 is a wrench, why would you bother to ask him that question? Not giving Indy a hard time but what answer did you expect?
Try asking Mr Smirnoff what Voldka is best.

A real dyno tune done by a competent pro on a calibrated machine will nearly always be better than any auto tune. But A TM auto tune is better than many canned maps. It is almost always better than what you will receive from a possibly untrained (half trained, poorly trained) tuner who may be using an uncalibrated dyno (ask me how I know this). Best of all YOU can adjust it any time you want to.

If you trust your tuner and want to get every last hp or just plain don't want to be bothered then get a dyno tune.

If you are slightly computer literate, want to save $400 a pop every time you upgrade and want full control over your tune then get a TM.

Note - This was in no way meant to be a slam of Indy #1.
 

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I didn't take it as a slam whatsoever and your pretty much right except a couple of things. You can also adjust other tuners be it Power Vision, SEPST, TTS, Techno Research. And quite honestly, I make just as muck of he TMax as I do with the cheaper flash tuners because the new "wave tuneing feature" on the TMax dials them in to the target AFR 3 times faster than the earlier version of the TMax. Another thing is I think throttle progresivity is important when tuning bikes and TMax doesn't allow you to change that.
 

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Indy, where are you located?

If you are going to come across like someone who actually know what they are doing you ought to let folks know where you are...
 

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Well, I don't know everything or claim to know everything and if be leary of anyone claims they do. I'm not a vendor here and I do not want to be perceived as a vendor or trying to sell anything. I'm just offering the information that I believe to be factual and contribute to the forum in a positive way. I don't mean to rip on anyone or any product, any members or any of the vendors who do pay to spawn the opportunity to gain business by doing so and if it came off that I was, it was not intentional. Sometimes things can be taken out of context when the human element is removed from the conversation as it is on a forum or a text message. I have been considering being a vendor here but I am very busy already and I'd like to just be able to post In a candid manor so members can see my transparency and see my perspective before I fork out money and possibly upset the wrong people and become a thorn in the side of the members here or the administration here. To answer your question, I'm located in Fort Gibson, Oklahoma. Also, my own personal bike is a Road Glide Custom! : )
 
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