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Discussion Starter #1
The New amps that J&M are producing are a real inconvenience to the average consumer. J&M has made the amp so that you have no gain controls or switches on the exterior of the amp which make it a simple adjustment that you can manually adjust the amp to the way you like it. Instead J&M has made their amps programmable which means You need to program the amps through a patch cord and download a fix for what ever your set up you may have. Keep in mind that this patch cord and downloads are going to cost extra. Which is going to add extra cost to the amp. And to add insult to injury the amps are available but the downloads are not. I am not that great at computers and can barely figure out how to use them, and J&M expects the average Joe to be able to do this... In my opinion this is going to impact sales. I am going to return mine to where I bought it because a amp should not be such a pain to deal with.
 

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JMJOHN
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imcworth ,,,,,,

I am sorry you are disappointed, but the advantages to the new J&M ROKKER XT programmable amps are just the opposite of what you perceive ,,,,

1 ,,,,, the amplifiers come from our factory come pre-programmed for the exact speaker configuration that you have on your Harley, to provide the maximum performance available at highway speeds ,,,,

2 ,,,,,, you don't need to worry about ever turning the gains up too far and damaging speakers, as everything is pre-set at our factory ,,,,,,

3 ,,,,,, should you wish to alter your exact speaker configuration, speaker impedance, and/or alter the amp settings in the field, the programming dongle will be less than $50 from J&M AND the programs themselves will be a free of charge download from the J&M website ,,,,,, we will start loading the programs to the website ((access from the ROKKER XT family page)) next week ,,,,,

4 ,,,,,, you can also order RIGHT NOW a J&M ROKKER XT custom system, with the amp pre-programmed for the exact 2, 4, 6, 8 or rear sub, speaker configuration that you order, and we will put it all together into one neat kit for you ,,,,,

this can also be done thru your favorite J&M master dealer ,,,, you would contact the J&M sales department at 800-358-0881, place your custom order, tell us the dealer you wish to purchase it thru, and we will take care of the rest ,,,,,

bottom line to all of this, is that all of us here at J&M want you to enjoy your ROKKER XT audio system for many years, mile after mile, without many of the past issues that have been caused by improperly adjusted amplifiers etc ,,,,,
 

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Discussion Starter #3 (Edited)
John,
I have J&M on my other bike and have been pleased with everything so far. But, Everything you explained is "IF" the consumer buys direct from J&M. At the prices on your site it has been cheaper for the consumer to buy from Ebay.
I have been doing amps for many years and yes probably have ruined a set of speakers over time. But this is a decision that the consumer should make not the manufacturer. I am just saying that you may be a little ahead of your time in technology on programmable amps. There are many that are still challenged by technology and we should have a choice on weather we set the gains manually or electronically. Also the Dongle should be included with the purchase. You have added everything else for plug and play! Adding another $50.00 makes you "BYE FAR" the most expensive amp on the market.
 

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JMJOHN
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the most expensive on the market ? ,,, yes, but well worth it ,,,, no other amp that is able to fit in the fairing of a Harley, produces 500w RMS continuous power, along with the custom SS mounting brackets, all custom USA made wiring harness and isolated RCA input adapter harness etc ,,,, see http://www.jmcorp.com/SeeProducts.asp?PF=45 ,,

and you can always shop and grind every penny out of the deal possible on places like eBay, but if you don't leave a decent profit margin for the seller, service after the sale often suffers ,,,,,

as for leaving the gain adjustments up to the end user on the really high powered amps like the ROKKER XT, that is a bad idea, we have many years of history relying on that approach ,,,,,

#1 ,,,,,, most do not have the knowledge or experience to set them properly ,,,,

#2 ,,,,, there are those that just turn them wide open and ride down the highway blowing speakers every other month, and it is no big deal because they expect the manufacturer to warranty them no matter how many times the user burns them up ,,,,,

#3 ,,,, MOST users would rather have the amp come out of the box, all set-up properly for their system, install it and enjoy ,,,, with no further hassles ,,,,

#4 ,,,,, MOST users are also not going to purchase a dongle, they would rather take it to the nearest J&M Master dealer and let them program it for whatever system modifications/alterations are being made ,,,,,

#5 ,,,,, for those of you who want a REAL GOOD amp, that still has MANUAL gain controls etc ,,,, we have the J&M 360w RMS Performance series amplifiers here http://www.jmcorp.com/SeeProducts.asp?PF=44 ,,,,,, and in kit for here, http://www.jmcorp.com/SeeProducts.asp?PF=47 all set up ,,,,,,
 

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I look at this the same I as I look at a EFI Tuner. I bought one so I could make adjusts as my configuration changes. However, I do not believe in having to pay extra for a new configuration. That's nickel and dime-ing customers. Just my 2 cents worth.
 

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Discussion Starter #6
John,
I really appreciate your responses and I am not trying to wear this out!
But, what keeps the programmer from setting the adjustments to high for their application? This programming electronically does not sound like a solution to keep the consumer from blowing up their speakers!
 

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John,
I really appreciate your responses and I am not trying to wear this out!
But, what keeps the programmer from setting the adjustments to high for their application? This programming electronically does not sound like a solution to keep the consumer from blowing up their speakers!
This sounds like the J&M is setting their product and keeping it so their warranty is not abused. J&M is reducing changes to their product while still covered. And if someone wants to change the end product, they can, but it will not be covered.

The Original post by imcworth is like someone arguing to Harley that they can change their stock motor with parts not covered or provided by the OEM. And if it blows up, expecting it to be covered under Warranty. Ain't going to happen.

So if you want to change your amp, I'm sure you can. But you do so at your own risk. And it will cost you if you make the mistake and blow the speakers. To do so is not J&M product's fault. And John is not wrong to protect his "Bottom Line" by limiting the product liability.
 

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Discussion Starter #9 (Edited)
Bottom line is when folks buy this amp and find the difficulty of getting the right program for it. sales will be lost in my opinion. I was told by one of the employees at J&M that I can send my amp to them and they will program it for me. I think that is great however who wants to send the amp to them every time you change your set up.Preset programming is set up for 2 ohm speakers so if you want 4ohms you have to send it to J&M to have them set it up. Who has time for that. And the cost to ship could be pricey.

Look I am not trying to bash J&M I have the Amp and speakers on my other Harley. But I also have control of the sound that comes out. I don't have to send out the amp every time I change my set up. I have been pleased with their product which is why I went with them again. I like things simple and not so complicated.
I have a hooked up a lot of amps in my day. And yet as a consumer I am voicing my experience with this new amp which in my opinion is to complicated and not convenient at all.
 

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JMJOHN
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The wire size for both our 250w and 500w ROKKER XT amps is 10ga for both the main power and ground wires ,,,,,, orange turn-on wire is smaller,,,,

main in-line fuse is 20amps for the 250w, and 25amps for the 500w ROKKER XT ,,,,,,,,

please REMEMBER ,,,,, amplifier DSP program downloads will be free of charge from the J&M website, no matter how many you go after ,,,, and the DONGLE to do this will be less than $50 ,,,,, I have already begun getting the information on the J&M website ROKKER XT page (((see http://www.jmcorp.com/SeeProducts.asp?PF=45 ,,,,,,,,,

as for what will stop the end user from downloading the incorrect program for his/her system to bypass the maximum limits I have imposed for each configuration ? ,,,,,

NOTHING ,,,, if the end user is determined to set things up too high and damage speakers, there is nothing anyone can do to stop them ,,,,,,

I find however that MOST customers will want the benefits of our knowledge and set-up testing, so that when they install their custom bagger audio system, it provides not only maximum performance, but maximum durability as well over the long haul ,,,,
 

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So I have a question that has been on my mind for some time.

I the amp is fused at 25 amps and has a currant input of 14.4 volts dc the max output will never exceed 350 watts and that would be assuming it is 100% efficient which we know it isn't because it produces heat. So with that being said how do amp manufactures get away with saying it is 500 watts rms. is this just marketing or am I missing something.


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So I have a question that has been on my mind for some time.
I the amp is fused at 25 amps and has a currant input of 14.4 volts dc the max output will never exceed 350 watts and that would be assuming it is 100% efficient which we know it isn't because it produces heat. So with that being said how do amp manufactures get away with saying it is 500 watts rms. is this just marketing or am I missing something.

This is how Sears got busted for claiming 7.5HP out of a shop vac that had a 16ga cord on it.........
The same investigation is why most electrical tools are now listed in amps, and small gas engines are only listed in cc's, no power claims are made.
 

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So I have a question that has been on my mind for some time.
I the amp is fused at 25 amps and has a currant input of 14.4 volts dc the max output will never exceed 350 watts and that would be assuming it is 100% efficient which we know it isn't because it produces heat. So with that being said how do amp manufactures get away with saying it is 500 watts rms. is this just marketing or am I missing something.
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There are many different classes and ratings of amplifiers (most common class A, B AB and D), I believe there is a class G and H also, John may confirm.
All of these different types of amplifiers reproduce music in different fashions, quality and use up a different amount of power to reproduce music at the same volume.

I can fully understand your question about how the true wattage is determined, however, you need to know exactly how the amplifier is designed (what class circuitry) before you can get a true determination of a specific amplifier.

(Just my .02) I have been researching heavily on replacing my current system this winter.

I came across this article about car amplifiers and wattage ratings. the author does own an audio shop so he does throw in some plugs (ADMINS, I DONT KNOW OF THE PLACE OR THE AUTHOR, I JUST FOUND THE ARTICLE INFORMATIVE ) but it is an interesting read.

http://www.outrageousaudio.com/page_files/amp_wattage.pdf


As far as imcworth concerns, I say there is nothing wrong on going what your comfortable with. :)


For the record, I currently do not use J&M now (possibly YET, they are one I have been considering) I just have been doing a lot of research to figure a budget to upgrade further from what I have now.


(I have to get back to work now, ssshhhh..... boss is coming:rolleyes:)
 

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Go go this link will explain a little better how an amplifier can produce more that what is actualy drawing amp wise.

http://www.crownaudio.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=3907

I just realise if you are not member you cannot open it, here a cut and paste

Power Output (audio)

Amplifier audio power output is a measure of maximum RMS wattage (W) produced with fHz sine wave input producing no more than d% distortion at the output. Typically f = 1k or 20-20k; d= 0.35 or 0.5.

Purpose is to give the user a means of comparing different amplifiers and for designing acoustic systems. Although it is a measured value, it is useful only for design and will never represent real-world operating conditions.



Note that Crown amp input sensitivity pots are calibrated such that at 1.4Vrms balanced input, the amp will reach W (max) watts output.

Power Draw (non-audio)
Amplifier non-audio power draw from the wall is a measure of current draw (amps), power draw (watts) and/or thermal dissipation (BTU) with pink noise applied at the input. This does not say anything about audio output, however the relationship between power output and power draw is efficiency. We spec power draw using two different levels of pink noise input:
1/8th power pink noise

Purpose is to give a maximum RMS power draw under typical real-world signal conditions. This is equivalent to normalized pink noise at the input (peaks = just at clipping)



1/3rd power pink noise

Purpose is to give a worst case power draw under extreme real-world signal conditions. This is equivalent to heavily clipped pink noise (peaks = +4.25dB above clipping). Most amps will quickly shut down, limit and/or trip a breaker under this condition.





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I have to say that I just added the new j&m 500w amp and while I didn't do it myself the tech that did it said it was the A very easy install. He is a certified audio tech who works at an HD dealer . Because the amp was preconfigure for my 4 speakers 2 up front and 2 in the bags, nothing had to be adjusted or configured.

Unlike when I had my 250w amp done,
They blew my right speaker installing the amp because they turned it up too much.

So I'm very happy with the new amp running my 4 speakers and was very happy when then install was around 1 hour and they didn't blow my speakers.

For us non audio files this is a great setup !!!!

:)


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Discussion Starter #20
I don't get the reason why you come on here complaining about the functionality of a product saying that its an inconvenience when you new how the product came before hand.


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Redneck, I did do a lot of research on the J&M 500 watt amp with manual preset. And I thought when I placed my order for the 500 watt amp it was going to have those presets. So somewhere between the time I was doing my research and pulling the plug to buy it,the model changed to this programmable unit which is what I received. I gave it my best to make this amp work for me. Without being able to program this amp to my set up the amp is worthless. The programs from J&M are not available and The preset programming by J&M is set for 2 ohm speakers. Find me a 6x9 2ohm that is worth buying. So if you have a 4ohm speaker you must take that amp and send it to J&M to have them program it for you. if this isn't an inconvenience I don't know what is . And as I stated before, I have J&M on my other bike and have had no issues.
 
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