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Discussion Starter #1
This is for the folks who are running the Power Vision. I just installed a cat-less header, Fuel -Moto AC, Samson Silver Bullets and topped it all off with the Power Vision. I used the load that FM recommended for me. Totally awesome!!!! All things involved it really woke my bike up and I'm tickled every time I ride it. But, I got to wondering....is there anything left? For the folks who started out with the recommended tune, but then did the auto-tune basic, did you really see any marked improvement? Or should I just leave well enough alone. I have no popping issues, decel or otherwise...runs great! I realize it's not hard to go back and forth between loads but with my OCD I can see me driving myself nuts seeking unattainable perfection. Just wondering what others have found. Y'all stay safe out there.
 

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If you're truly obsessed about making your bike run the very best it can, I don't think anything short of a competent dyno operator who's willing to spend the time it may take to get the best out of your bike, is going to let you rest assured that it is performing to it's best potential. "Autotune" is a strong word and IMO implies something that it isn't. "Auto adjust" might be a better name for it... but that probably would sell as many "autotune" units, would it?
 

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Auto tune are nice if you already have base map built around the set up.
There is not one out there that does timing.
You change timing it changes AFR.
The sad thing there's not a lot of shops that understand the power vision yet.
We run into this everyday selling these programmer's.

The best way is to get it on the dyno and get it tuned 100%::D
 

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The other side of the coin is your dynotuner is tuning in an environment. We ride in multiple environments. I live at sea level and the humidity is extremely high in the summer. When I ride to the mountains and in drier weather the bike has an opportunity to make adjustments for the altitude.

AT Basic & Pro are two entirely different animals.

Your dyno guy is using pro ~ Wideband Sniffer. In your tailpipe ~ Can he tune the cylinders individually? I feel that I can do a more accurate job with AT Pro since I am tuning cylinders individually.

I am also accounting for temperature, humidity, fuel, and altitude.

Also, if I decide to play with timing (which I do). AT Pro will adjust the AFR's for that.

AT Basic with a great running bike is probably left best untouched.

I can tell you from experience with my bikes and miles ridden, and friends, there are many miles with great runners that have never been on a dyno.

Heatwave's 117 PCV & AT
My S&S 124 ~ PV and AT Pro
A friends 103 with woods 555's, FM's headpipe, and breather.

I'm sure a professional dyno guy would be able to squeak another HP or two out, or even another few pounds of tq.

So there lies the question, if I'm agreeing a pro dyno guy can make it a bit stronger why am I so stuck on AT.

I prefer not to use the dyno's, my bike runs great ~ If I can't outrun you where I am at I'm thinking the dyno guy with a bit more probably won't get me there either...

What about the altitude, ambient temps, fuel variance, and relative humidity.

These are factors none of us can control.

Basic won't do these as well as pro.

I am running a PV and will run pro, I will probably tinker with timing a bit, and a few other things. But at the end of the day I'm happy with the bike, the fact that the bike has not had to spend a day on the dyno, gambling that this dyno guy really understands his profession (I know there are great dyno pros ~ but there are some quacks also).

I don't really care about numbers, to me it is about 50k a year of rideabliity.

But don't try to pass me unless you think you can outrun the 124 for a few hundred miles :)
 

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You can run a tune and if you don't like it, just reload the one you are running now.
 

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Discussion Starter #8
Well I ran auto-tune

Found my self with nothing to do today so I thought I'd go ahead and run the auto-tune. Simple enough...I've done 2 AT tune cycles for 20 and 30 minutes. Flying by the seat of my pants I can't readily tell any difference...still runs as good as it did on the canned tune they sent me. During AT Basic I believe the idea is to get it to hit all/most of the parameters in the data-log grid so I tried to vary my riding style as much as possible. I noticed the cells in the grid would change color...yellow, orange, or red on my green back ground. Is there any significance to the color of that cell. Is red really bad, and orange really good? Seems most go to orange after a while. I hit the DynoJet website and their FAQ section but didn't see anything about colors. So here's where my OCD kicks in....how do I know I've run AT enough? Is there any indication I've got it the best I can? Like I said I'm not feeling any difference. I can appreciate what dynoing can do but it was all I could do scrape the $$ together for the PV. I may have to post a new thread for these questions but thought I'd start here. TIA
 

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Simple enough...I've done 2 AT tune cycles for 20 and 30 minutes. Flying by the seat of my pants I can't readily tell any difference.. So here's where my OCD kicks in....how do I know I've run AT enough? Is there any indication I've got it the best I can? Like I said I'm not feeling any difference. I can appreciate what dynoing can do but it was all I could do scrape the $$ together for the PV. TIA
After tuning multiple bikes with minimal performance components added (ie air cleaner and pipes), I have found more offer then not, the canned maps can severely out of tune, even from what I ear is the top seller of Power Commander products with a plethora of canned maps. Two recently in particular was a 2005 SEEG with air cleaner and Rinehart true duals and a canned map in a PC3 with a label on it from a company that is know for it's canned maps. The tune was so far off, the cylinders were bronzed over with only 6300 miles in total on the bike.

Another was a 96" bike with a canned map in a Power Vision with a canned map from the same source. The owner had added true duals and extreme slip ons and 551 cams and had done 54 data logging sessions and could get the fuel right. He said he had not touched the timing. The canned map must have sidle been improperly flashed. At 100% throttle, the timing was at a whopping 48 degrees advance!

If you are truly "OCD", you'll never know if your engine is operating to it's peak efficiency until it's tuned on a dyno, preferably with a strain gauge (that takes an actual measurement like a torque wrench) rather than the typical dyno that uses the same algorithm (mathematical equation) based on how fast your bike can accelerate a drum and tha same algorythm is used for a stock 50cc dirt bikeways a flat tire as a Boss Hoss with a 502 big block with a turbo, NOS, 300mm rear tire mounted on a solid billet mag wheel with an over inflated tire. How could those 2 different bikes possibly have the same algoryth that is formulated to show the same parasitic drivetrain loss? Answer: it can't and narrow band O2 sensors in particular by design are not built with performance being the agenda. They are used because they help pass emissions tests and they're cheap to make.
Another problem is reversion. The air we breathe is 20.9% oxygen. Almost every bike has reversion sopmewhere. When the O2 sensor sees the increase in oxygen that up the exhaust system, it tells the ECM to add fuel when in fact, is may already actuall be too richi there. CO (partially burned oxygen and fuel) on the other hand, is basically 0% in the air we breathe and much less prone to seeing skewed readings during reversion. This same scenario can occur on large motors with cams that have a lot of overlap. In short, you can't possibly know where your engine runs optimally until cells have been poked and prodded and peak torque has been me bbjbbbjasure with a strain gauge.
 

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Thanks for the Info Indy. I agree with you on basically all of your points and hope you understand that I am not knocking a professional in your field. My position is that a dyno guy that has tuned 1000's of bikes does not make him a professional, he is only as good as his training, equipment, and attention to detail.

I guess a real eye opener is for me is the term Lambda. I've run into quite a few that don't really know what this term means. Yes, these guys were the designated tuning guru at their place of employment. Scary stuff, just as I've watched guys that have assembled twin cams and other v twins never put a torque wrench on a build.

I do not make a living turning wrenches but own quite a few torque wrenches. When I work on my bike I take the time to open the service manual and look up the torque spec.

I would probably be very comfortable letting you, Doc, Scott, Frank, or Jamie tune my bike on a dyno.

But to roll my bike into a dealership and have them tune it would leave me feeling a bit uneasy.

I chose the PowerVision (and am glad I did) for one main reason. S&S offers the canned 124 map with my pipes on their website. I thought this would be a good solid basemap to follow up the AT-Pro. After six tuning sessions I have compared the base map and the tuned map, most of the adjustments were minimal.

Now that I am using the PowerVision I am taking the time to understand the how it works and what else is possible. Since I do not make a living doing this I will never have the wisdom a pro has but am confident in my AFR's and very satisfied with the seat of the pants performance.
 

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I had a map from Dragos and the bike ran great but had a little decal pop. One Auto Tune and it was gone so to me it was worth it.
I have the same issue. A decel pop ... or a few pops.
Either way, I think it's time for me to get the book out and understand what I can do with the PV and this auto tune thing.
I installed a set of Drago's and the PV, along with a HD high flow air filter kit.
Bike runs great, fuel mileage is still excellent, just that popping on decel.
 

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The other side of the coin is your dynotuner is tuning in an environment. We ride in multiple environments. I live at sea level and the humidity is extremely high in the summer. When I ride to the mountains and in drier weather the bike has an opportunity to make adjustments for the altitude.

AT Basic & Pro are two entirely different animals.

Your dyno guy is using pro ~ Wideband Sniffer. In your tailpipe ~ Can he tune the cylinders individually? I feel that I can do a more accurate job with AT Pro since I am tuning cylinders individually.

I am also accounting for temperature, humidity, fuel, and altitude.

Also, if I decide to play with timing (which I do). AT Pro will adjust the AFR's for that.

AT Basic with a great running bike is probably left best untouched.

I can tell you from experience with my bikes and miles ridden, and friends, there are many miles with great runners that have never been on a dyno.

Heatwave's 117 PCV & AT
My S&S 124 ~ PV and AT Pro
A friends 103 with woods 555's, FM's headpipe, and breather.

I'm sure a professional dyno guy would be able to squeak another HP or two out, or even another few pounds of tq.

So there lies the question, if I'm agreeing a pro dyno guy can make it a bit stronger why am I so stuck on AT.

I prefer not to use the dyno's, my bike runs great ~ If I can't outrun you where I am at I'm thinking the dyno guy with a bit more probably won't get me there either...

What about the altitude, ambient temps, fuel variance, and relative humidity.

These are factors none of us can control.

Basic won't do these as well as pro.

I am running a PV and will run pro, I will probably tinker with timing a bit, and a few other things. But at the end of the day I'm happy with the bike, the fact that the bike has not had to spend a day on the dyno, gambling that this dyno guy really understands his profession (I know there are great dyno pros ~ but there are some quacks also).

I don't really care about numbers, to me it is about 50k a year of rideabliity.

But don't try to pass me unless you think you can outrun the 124 for a few hundred miles :)
You must be getting old, it used to be a few thousand miles LOL:rolleyes:

I'm a fan of the AutoTune, the bike runs / acts fine everywhere ~ the key is a close BaseMap.

Could a Great Tuner eek a hair more out of it, probably? $400 more? (for me, I doubt it)

Like Mitchdm, I ride in all different conditions / environments, so my (our) criteria may be a little different than others...

Other than a mild curiosity to see what the #s actually are, the '09 won't see a dyno anytime soon...

imho, Embrace the PV, learn it, play with it, have fun with it, just make sure that you properly save your maps (so that you can always go back, if going forward doesn't take you where you want to go)
 

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No offense taken by me! In fact, I was concerned some may have been offended by my post. If you're happy that's what matters in the end. That being said, as a wise man once said, "the best you know is the best you've ever had... not necessarily the best.

Since the last post wasn't taken out of context and offensive to anyone, here is some interesting information that I'll disclose here first. I tuned a bike Thursday and for those who don't know, I do not use O2 sensors to tune with but I did sample with them and use the wide bands to log data in conjunction with my typical 4 gas method. I expected to see some pretty close correlation between the O2 sensors and the gas readings. It was a 2011 RG FWIW and I was actually pretty shocked that from the data I collected, there was no direct correlation. It was my first time using this particular system so maybe it has not been given a fair shake yet but in this instance, the way Id tune the bike with 4 gas was largely different than I would using the way I tune with the information from the 4 gas analyzer. Until more testing is done and more bikes are tested, I'll leave details out. Perhaps it was a mistake on my part in how to use the O2 sensors or perhaps there is some faulty equipment involved or something else I have not considered yet. Just candid information for those who care to ponder on it.
 
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