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Discussion Starter #1
Hi everyone!
I don't know if you have visited your local dealership lately but the ones in my area have begun posting warnings around the parts and service areas about installing tuners "other than the harley tuners", WILL void your warranty!
I say this to share a situation that happened to me within the past month.
I'm fairly well known within a few of the dealerships near me. I bought my CVO back in December 17. I generally do all of my own maintenance and upgrades. Because of work and weather, I really haven't been able to ride much so when I did ride, they were short, 20 miles or less.
About a month ago, some friends and I took a 70 mile ride to New Orleans. Nothing crazy, about 75 degrees, great day for a ride. After 1 hour, the bike began to lose power, and the back cylinder began to get hot. (The dreaded sumping symptoms) Made it to the local dealership and sat there 1 hour. Started the bike and headed home, no issues. Within 1 hour of the ride back, same issues reappear. I'm now furious, take the bike straight to my local dealership. The bike has 3700 miles on it and six months of warranty left.
Two weeks prior to this incident I added some SVT Boneshakers, LA 47 bars, the new spoiler that comes on the 19's, cam kit with the SE515 cam, and a Power Vision tuner thru this dealership! The cam kit had not been installed and I had only been playing around with the tuner checking out how it worked. No engine mods had been done prior.
I told them the symptoms and I'm well aware of what they indicated, and so we're they. The first question they asked was, " have you hooked it up to your tuner yet?" Of course was my response. The next day I was informed that when they hooked up the bike for a diagnosis, harley flaged the the vin, thus voiding the warranty. Just like that.
Even though I have not married the tuner to the bike and made sure to flash the original tune back on it, they can still detect if a tuner has been used. I was informed by the service manager that harley employs people who do nothing else but read diagnostics to insure you have not used an aftermarket tuner. Now the company knows that they have an oil pump issue with the 2017/18 M8 engine. But are only offering a fix of an upgraded SE pump as a fix and only if symptoms have appeared, and you aren't using an aftermarket tuner. (Lol)
Luckily my relationship with the dealership saved me. I bought the S & S camplate and pump myself, swapped to a Woods cam, and they installed it for free to save face. But the warranty is still voided.
Harley Davidson WILL void your warranty if you use an aftermarket tuner before the end of your warranty period!
 

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EPA is all over their ass, plus this has the benefit for the dealers of driving much more business their way. Winner, winner chicken dinner ... except for the consumer who loses all aftermarket options, and will likely pay more for similar products at the dealership. I thought the Magnuson Act prevented this predatory practice by the OEMs. Used to be that you first had to actually have a mechanical problem, then they (dealership) had to prove that the aftermarket part in question was what directly caused the problem, they couldn't just blanket reject the use of aftermarket parts. What next? They'll probably void your warranty on a new "Live Wire" if you plug into a "non-approved" source of power to recharge the batteries".
 

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Surely the dealership (parts department) should have informed you about HD warranty issues when you bought the tuner from them. Bad news about the warranty. Can you buy an ESP And have the work covered that way.?
 

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No more new HDs for me.... too damn expensive, pay even more to get the bike where it should have come from the factory, then lose the warranty with known issues. This recipe makes no sense.

I will always have an HD in the garage, but it looks like any “new” ones will come from the used market. I’m done with this stupid game they’re playing. It’s a rich man’s game.

What happened to HD being for the working man?
 

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Shark of the Month October 13
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No more new HDs for me.... too damn expensive, pay even more to get the bike where it should have come from the factory, then lose the warranty with known issues. This recipe makes no sense.

I will always have an HD in the garage, but it looks like any “new” ones will come from the used market. I’m done with this stupid game they’re playing. It’s a rich man’s game.

What happened to HD being for the working man?

I agree with you. I'm riding a 2011 and I'm pretty sure it's my last Harley, or at least my last new Harley. If my TC 103 shits the bed, I'll drop another motor in it. With both the RG Special and the Ultra banging hard against the $30k mark with 2-tone paint, I'd still be short about $5k worth of aftermarket parts to get it where I need to be.

If the asshole that's running the joint up there in Milwaukee hadn't pissed through hundreds of millions of dollars on failed projects ("Street" twins; the purchase of MV Augusta for $109 million and then sold it back for $1.50 - yes $1.50 .... and that was after putting $26 million cash into MV's bank account to complete the terms of sale; a new electric bike that cost more than twice that of competitors; etc. etc.) maybe they wouldn't have to keep jacking up the prices of current models so sharply. We're all paying for his ego driven mistakes .... he needs to be gone.
 

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EPA is all over their ass, plus this has the benefit for the dealers of driving much more business their way. Winner, winner chicken dinner ...
You might think that but many dealerships make a made a huge profit selling and installing after market parts and their bottom line is suffering due to the new rules. The way they can get around the MM Act with the tuner is that they can say it takes it out of EPA parameters, which it does. This is not new BTW. This has been the MoCo's stance ever since the M8 came out and many dealerships found a work around for a while just to get those aftermarkets parts sales. Now that the Mothership has increased its ability to monitor and enforce the rules everyone is crying. I don't like it but I plan to keep the M8 I have for a while and just not worry about warranty since I can do all of my own wrenching. When the time comes for another bike I will just buy a Twinkie beater and build what I want from the frame up.

I'm pretty sure if you install an aftermarket tuning device on most other motorcycles or any automobile it would also void your warranty. Curious to know if anyone knows anything different.
 

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They'll have to be prying my 10 out of my cold dead fingers at this rate..


Only thing I'm looking to buy now is a 98 Evo FLTR to complete the set with my 81 Shovel.
 

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Discussion Starter #9
Thanks for the backup guys.
I like you have been a die hard harley owner for a long time. We all know that a “tuner” doesn’t have a damn thing to do with a defective oil pump. When they checked the bike, it had no oil in the bottom of the engine. Hell, I know a guy who has had two 107’s replaced and a third that just threw a rod. The company would only agree to a discount on the price of the S & S pump because it went beyond what HD was providing.
I’m pretty sure he was a victim of the bulletin that came out about checking the piston jets after a sumping event.
Now that I’ve been flagged, the only warranty I can purchase would be aftermarket. And I too will not buy another new bike.
I’m sure somebody may file a lawsuit if things don’t change.
 

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Discussion Starter #10
Good point about wrenching on your own cuz I do too. But, if you spend the money on a CVO, and there are defects, hell, I expect them to call me!
 

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Sadly I think you are in for more grief with that bike. Seen it before and have read that S&S states that their pump and plate is not a cure for sumping. If your bike sumped stock and a cam and S&S pump/plate were the only mechanical upgrades then you have a very good chance of sumping again.

From all that I have read you are likely the owner of some out of round cylinders from the factory. Aftermarket bored cylinders and pistons would be your best bet if you do come across the sumping symtoms again.

I will be in the same boat if mine produces symtoms as I have owned my '18 FLTRXS for roughly 11 months and I put a bolt-in cam with a TTS tuner over the winter. Will roll over 10K on the odometer this weekend, but who knows if we are ever out of the woods for the symtoms lol. I did lots of research to inform myself what I would be paying for to fix my problem if it developes when I rid myself of my powertrain warranty.

Hope you cured it, but if not......

Adam
 

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Thanks guys. I was this close [] to pulling the trigger on a 19 RGS. I always tinker with my bikes, think I will keep on riding what I have and can work on.
 

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While the sumping issue is a discussion that both needs and deserves it's own discussion, Harley-Davidson's obligations under the consent decree with the EPA are clear in black in white right there in the decree itself:
The EPA said:
14. Denial of Warranty.
a. Defendants shall deny all warranty claims for functional defects of
powertrain components for any Harley-Davidson vehicle (Model Year
2017 or later) registered in the United States, if any Defendants have any
information to show that such vehicle was tuned using a Tuning Product
that was not covered by a California ARB Executive Order or otherwise
approved by EPA.
b. Defendants shall instruct Harley-Davidson dealers to deny such warranty
claims where any Defendant or any Harley-Davidson dealer has any such
information.
c. No later than December 31, 2016, Defendants shall ensure that their
warranty policies and product literature state that Defendants will deny
warranty claims for functional defects of powertrain components for any
Harley-Davidson vehicle, Model Year 2017 or later, that was tuned using
a Tuning Product that was not covered by a California ARB Executive
Order, or otherwise approved by EPA.
Makes for a bad set of circumstances for folks who have a sumping issue but have also installed aftermarket tuners. As much of a raw deal as it may seem, it's the EPA's decision, and not Harley's. $12 million out of pocket plus the loss on any tuners they got back (who'd be dumb enough to sell them back?) hurts. A LOT, and they're not interested in getting spanked again.
 

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I have a 19 RGS, it will remain stock until I decide it's all good or the two year warrenty is up. No harm no foul. Once the warrenty is up I'll do what ever I want to it. Might be stage I, and might just leave it alone. Time will tell. This whole warrenty thing doesn't bother me one bit.
 

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Thanks guys. I was this close [] to pulling the trigger on a 19 RGS. I always tinker with my bikes, think I will keep on riding what I have and can work on.
I bought a 2019 RGS and compared to my old 103 TC I'm not even going to touch anything that ties into the ECM. No need for me and it runs perfect. my mods are purely aesthetic and even then with this bike I've barely done anything to it I like it so much right off the floor.

I hate headaches but my gripes always seem to be about these crap dunlops they put on them. Fortunately, up to this point I have never had an engine issue with any HD bike I've owned (so far that has been 5).
 

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No more new HDs for me.... too damn expensive, pay even more to get the bike where it should have come from the factory, then lose the warranty with known issues. This recipe makes no sense.

I will always have an HD in the garage, but it looks like any “new” ones will come from the used market. I’m done with this stupid game they’re playing. It’s a rich man’s game.

What happened to HD being for the working man?


That’s the way I feel about the new Harley’s, no new ones for me either. I’ll keep what I have and if I decide to get another it will be a BMW K 1600 B.
 

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I bought my 19 knowing all this and it is good incentive to keep mine fairly stock for a change. My buddy who is an engine builder has tried talking me into a 124 and since he did such a good job on a 110 build in my dyna before I'll probably let him... .in two years.
 

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Even though I have not married the tuner to the bike and made sure to flash the original tune back on it, they can still detect if a tuner has been used.
you have married your tuner to your bike. you wouldn't be able to flash it otherwise.

this warranty voiding thing isn't just limited to hd. buy a new $75,000 truck, put a tuner in it and see how far you get with warranty on that.

it really sucks, but in the bigger picture, hd is really just catching up with everyone else. they have been able to 'look the other way' for a long time.
 

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When I purchased my 2013 I added the two year warranty to it. From there I kept the bike as stock looking as possible. This meant I used a de-catted header, CVO Slipons and a Stage 1 Intake. Though I did run it with DynoJet.

Now I run a Thundermax ECU. I wonder if you run a separate ECU and had the tuner married to it and just swapped back when it was in for at the shop would they be able to detect it. Granted this would only work for basic stage 1 kits...
 

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just curious, can you buy a different ECM and swap that in, then use your tuner and if you have an issue swap out the ECM back to the original, remove the tuner and proceed?
 
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