Does "choppy" mean the throttle response? How many miles since the upgrade?

 

800 miles. Choppy is the only word i can think of. It use to feel strong but smooth.
But now it stronger but choppy not smooth when i crank the throttle.
I had a big bore kit put on the bike one time and all they did was download a factory map. the bike definitely felt stronger but I wouldn’t say it was very smooth. the technician told me let me do a custom tune and it will be stronger and smoother and when he was done it was.
So it’s kind of that past experience it’s making me think the Harley tune is OK but if I want it to be smooth I got to do something else

 

I can only speak from my personal experience. With my tuner, it allows some adjustment to the throttle which I have tweaked with success. If I were in your position, I would trust what the technician stated - with the caveat that if it didn't work, no money changes hands. Regarding the warranty, I can't answer that as my level of risk aversion may be different. But I gotta say it must be hard to ride a bike you don't enjoy.

My apologies if that isn't helpful. I am sure someone will chime in and tell you exactly what you "need" to do.

Have a great day!!

 

I have a 2020 with a stage 2 TQ cam This is the first all SE mild build I have done full V&H exhaust with a SE pro street tuner and smart tune started running choppy as you put it under 2500 RPM took it to a different dealer and put it on the Dyno it was $300 came back at 108 hp 128 torque and it runs really well I had some choppy moments through this riding season I would change gas stations and surprisingly it ran much better I’ll also throw a little boost in it from time to time really makes a difference I also disabled the EITMS just over the last week it runs a lot better don’t ask me why 79° wide-open riding as soon as I come to a stop it would come on. It seems to me to be running better. What you’re experiencing is real hope this helps. If it’s any consolation I found that even though it ran great as a stock motor it was super quiet shockingly so I was scared that once I put the cam in it would be gone it changed a little bit but it does run pretty quiet

 

It has been my experience that the farther you get away from stock (the way the engine was manufactured), the less pleasant your overall experience will be. Not talking about performance, that's why you do the "upgrade."

The cams you can put in the bike add more duration in the timing and gives the valves more lift, and it affects the way your bike runs. It might run better at mid to higher rpm, but it also might not idle as well or perform in the lower rpm, where you actually spend most of your time. The acceleration is nice, but it comes at a price.

If you've ever heard or seen a Formula 1 car, you'll know that it's pretty much the pinnacle of engine design. It idles at around 8,000 rpm because it would not be able to sustain a lower rpm without engine damage.

If you talk to the tuner about how it runs they might be able to smooth it out for you...

 

When you upgrade to a different cam, you’ll notice different things from the engine. It sounds like to me that you need a solid Dyno tune. I’m running a 131 with a 543 lift, CNC heads and the works. Because it makes a lot of power and torque I had to get used to the throttle because I can upset the bike at high lean angles due to the new power band. If Im not smooth with the power inputs the bike will feel “choppy” because of that power band. It took me awhile to get used to it especially coming out of the apex of hooks. Too much gas and the bike accelerates too much and I need to lean more When I don’t have any more lean left. Too little and I’m behind the power curve. Good luck with your bike. Hope you get it set up.

 

Sounds like the extra torque you have gained down low is what is making that choppy experience. The motor is probably responding to any movement in the twist grip. Experienced the same effect when I went from a long duration ligh lift upper end cam to a short duration low end cam. 2 different parts to fixing it for me was I had to learn how to ride it again being torque was where I needed it and was there immediately with any movement of the throttle. 2nd part was my tuner allows me to change the sensitivity of the throttle. I have no idea if the HD tuners allows you to do that.

 

…………. 2nd part was my tuner allows me to change the sensitivity of the throttle. I have no idea if the HD tuners allows you to do that.

This is what I was about to add….. Perhaps you can smooth it out by decreasing throttle response via your tuner….?

 

I've recently been in your shoes. Maybe I can help. What are you running for intake and exhaust? I'm assuming that you upgraded the intake to one that is more free flowing. On the exhaust side, did you upgrade the headers or just change the slip-ons? Are you running the stock narrow-band O2 sensors, or did you upgrade to the wide band O2 sensors? I've learned the hard way that some HD techs have no clue about exhaust pulses and use of the SE smart tune pro.

 

Just cannon slip ons. RGS come with stage1 air intake. Its not a lack of performance increase. It feels stronger but choppy. Not smooth. My ambition was not real high.
Just wanted to slip in a epa compliant cam. Loved how smooth the bike ran I mostly just did it because I always do it but this is my first time doing it to an M8. Now i regret it. Bike did feel like a smooth powerful sewing machine now it feels like a grunty tractor.
One of the reasons I didn’t go with a aftermarket cam, wide band sensors , decat etc. i just didn’t feel like blowing that much money when typically the hd mild cam is good enough for me. But now i will have spend a bunch of money getting a better tune which will void my warranty.

 

I'm not sure what "choppy" means. Even though you've tried to answer.

If you are experiencing: "strong and weak pull during throttle roll on" - I would suspect the tune is not matched well with your bike. Two bikes with the same equipment may need to be tuned slightly differently. Two bikes with different equipment definitely need to be tuned differently.

If you are experiencing: "rougher idle and jerkier torque" - that's sort of by design. As noted above, the point of the different cam is to delivery something different than stock.

I voided my warranty almost immediately, my choice isn't for everyone...but, here are the big reasons:

1. Harley tunes and equipment MUST be EPA compliant. This means they are forced to work within priorites that are NOT: "optimal engine power/running". They strive to do what they can, but still need to run overly lean to meet EPA regs and therefore end up hotter, etc. (I listed this number one, because I think it applies most to your situation)

2. Their parts have been developed within the same constraints as noted in #1 above. Therefore, for the $ you get something that isn't OPTIMAL. It's the best it can be, within a set of parameters. Aftermarket allows you to go "optimal".

3. Dollar per torque is horrible. You can spend much less and achieve more with unrestricted aftermarket.

In the end, you need to prioritize what is most important to you.

From your description, I'm guessing the dealer just loaded a pre-programmed tune. Which means, if you put your bike on the dyno......you might actually be able to *see the choppiness" in the graph. If your dealer has a dyno, perhaps they can run your bike through and give your the chart.

smooth and linear curves are what we all want - I'd be interested in what your curve looks like.

 

Before I realize I really hated how not smooth I feel the bike runs I knew that after I did the cam I would do a dyno pull. I have it scheduled for thur at the Indian dealer. Got about 800 miles with new cam. Local hd does not have a dyno. The stock pull i did there was very smooth and linear.

But yes even though my bike has more grunt I definitely preferred how smooth it was with the stock cam and going back to that is a consideration I’m just not sure yet.

 

Sounds like a tuning or TBW issue. The HD cam is not by any means a big difference.
Of course at idle most any cam change will make a difference in how it feels at idle.

 

Ya at idle i do not care that much. Too me its just does not smooth out very good. Supposedly the ecm learns but after 800 miles i just do not like it

 

It sure sounds like you have an issue unrelated to the cam you chose. Or the combination of parts, exhaust, etc. The "torque cam" changes the way the motor sounds, but should not cause problems with acceleration, even from low rpm. When you say "choppy", is it the exhaust note or actual jerkiness?
Many of those cams have been installed with great success.
I installed that cam, S&S lifters, SE adj. pushrods, S&S 55mm aluminum intake manifold, SE air cleaner, SE tuner, SE high flow exhaust system, and SE auto tuning module with wideband 02 sensors and the motor runs beautifully. It pulls smoothly from even lower rpm than stock all the way to the rev limiter. No pinging, better gas mileage, and it will get out from under you in corners if you roll on carelessly.
Not boasting here, but trying to help you think through what's been done. I know everyone likes to rag on the SE parts, but they aren't all bad. I wasn't trying to eek out the highest numbers, just wanted the bike to run and sound "right", still retaining reliability.
It sounds like something has gone wrong during the work that was done and the best way to find a problem may be to reverse engineer and start over going over every part of the install and adjustment process.

 

It sure sounds like you have an issue unrelated to the cam you chose. Or the combination of parts, exhaust, etc. The "torque cam" changes the way the motor sounds, but should not cause problems with acceleration, even from low rpm. When you say "choppy", is it the exhaust note or actual jerkiness?
Many of those cams have been installed with great success.
I installed that cam, S&S lifters, SE adj. pushrods, S&S 55mm aluminum intake manifold, SE air cleaner, SE tuner, SE high flow exhaust system, and SE auto tuning module with wideband 02 sensors and the motor runs beautifully. It pulls smoothly from even lower rpm than stock all the way to the rev limiter. No pinging, better gas mileage, and it will get out from under you in corners if you roll on carelessly.
Not boasting here, but trying to help you think through what's been done. I know everyone likes to rag on the SE parts, but they aren't all bad. I wasn't trying to eek out the highest numbers, just wanted the bike to run and sound "right", still retaining reliability.
It sounds like something has gone wrong during the work that was done and the best way to find a problem may be to reverse engineer and start over going over every part of the install and adjustment process.

I’m getting a Dino pull on Thursday hopefully that’ll give me a better view. The bike runs strong, its not sputtering, back firing or pinging its just not nearly as smooth acceleration as it was. So much in fact i do not like it. Thats it.

 

So did you actually buy a SEPST, or did you just have the dealer load the base tune for your config? I run the SE447 TQ cam and bought the SEPST nodule so I can see what’s going on and make changes. The dealer installed my cam and loaded the base config tune, but I ran several smart tune sessions with the SEPST a few days afterward and it took care of a few hiccups I felt on the initial ride home. I’m a retired engineer and have to be in control of my environment, so the idea of buying the SEPST and interface cable was a no-brainer for me. All in all I love the end result and how much the TQ cam improved low-to-mid grunt and the little bit of lope at Idle.

 

I have a SE tuner. I do not know if that is a SEPST. The dealership used my SE tuner to access my ECM. They did a live tune and then overlayed the live tune data onto the Torque Cam MAP and up loaded it to the ECM.
I do not know what device they attached to the bike to data log for the live tune.
I had a big bore done once and the factory MAP was ok but not great. They tech told me to try letting him do a custom tune and it would be a lot better. When he was done the bike was strong and smooth.
My gut tells me i have a similar situation. Do a custom tune or put the stock cam back in.

So did you actually buy a SEPST, or did you just have the dealer load the base tune for your config? I run the SE447 TQ cam and bought the SEPST nodule so I can see what’s going on and make changes. The dealer installed my cam and loaded the base config tune, but I ran several smart tune sessions with the SEPST a few days afterward and it took care of a few hiccups I felt on the initial ride home. I’m a retired engineer and have to be in control of my environment, so the idea of buying the SEPST and interface cable was a no-brainer for me.

 

Lutzy is right.

Properly tuned with the restrictive H-D equipment still on the bike, it will run ''OK'' but not optimal.

If you're investing in ''stage 2'' you need to get away from the factory tuner.

Your bike is not properly tuned at all, and clearly not even at ''OK''.

Down here, the best dealerships recognise that the factory tuners are sub-optimal, and they install DynoJet PowerVision and other brands on new bikes pre-delivery, and will even fit aftermarket pipes, intake etc. Had it done myself on my 2019- H-D torque cam, DJPV, V&H true dual headers, S&S slipons... all my choices with zero miles on clock. And they will still stand behind the factory warranty as long as they do all the work.

I got it ALL done pre-delivery to get a great discount on the whole new bike + mods deal out the door.

Significantly, the selling dealership (300 miles from my house, excellent sales reputation unlike my nearest dealer) that did all that did not have a rolling road and could not accurately tune the bike pre-delivery. They just loaded a canned map that was near enough, in their eyes, and called it good.

My local servicing dealership (50 miles including ferry trip from my house, excellent service reputation) called it ''way bad'' very early on. The head mechanic, DynoJet trained, explained why, and urged me to let him have it on the shop rolling road. He did the job right and the difference was night and day. Added 20 (!!!) horsepower and a lot more torque just through being tuned correctly. I have the before/after run sheets. That was 2.5yrs ago.

Bike is smooth and powerful and I am 30,000 miles up. Totally satisfied and doing my own servicing now. True duals cost a few torque numbers down low but I love the look.

While bike was under 2yr warranty, I had it serviced all the time at that second dealer. Despite the aftermarket intake, exhaust and tuner, because all that was installed at the selling dealer, and the second shop was servicing the bike ... they stood behind the factory warranty when the lifters went at 12,000 and the trans-to-primary migration happened even earlier.

Moral of story: ditch factory tuner, install a quality aftermarket tuner that your nearest best workshop knows backwards, and can support ... forget about warranty fears if a dealer will not do that for you, then ride the wheels off it.

 

I love my Stage II SE with Torque Cam. It is smoooooth and runs great. Sounds like something isn't right to me.

 

I checked on my Autrella Extended Service Plan. I can custom tune the bike and it does not void the warranty like it does with HD. So that is good news.

 

I have a friend who has the HD torque cam and stated when he is at a stop, he has to raise the throttle a bit when releasing the clutch from a dead stop.

 

What would be the other way to come from a stop?…. I mean, all my bikes I had to raise the throttle while releasing the clutch coming from a stop…


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I had a Red Shift 468 and a D&D 2 into 1 put in my Ultra Ltd about a year ago. Indy used a TTS tuner, but bike didn't run as smooth. Wasn't happy. Took the bike to an Indy I trusted (120 miles away). Changed exhaust and retuned. Bike ran great, just a lot noisier in the upper valve train. Tuner makes a big difference. I traded it 2 weeks ago for my ST. The only thing I'm doing to this is exhaust. It already has enough balls for my soon to be 69 body.

 

I got the bike Dyno tuned. It runs way smoother. The singular greatest thing to ever happen in America!😊

 

So I guess the question is now...Are you glad you but the cam in? or Do you wish you would have left it stock?

 

Not 100% certain yet because I originally didn’t go aftermarket because I wanted to keep my Harley warranty but since I had to get it, Dyno tune i just voided the powertrain warranty. But i have a back up esp.

 

I knew a dyno tune would make you happy.

 

Run a couple auto tune sessions, that will further improve the fuel map.

 

I was wondering about that, but the guy that dyno my bike said don’t fool with it anymore